29. When Their World Stops from Grief with Anne-Marie Lockmyer
““Let’s start with what not to say because those are the things that most of us say. The first thing…. is to say very little…..because you can’t fix it….stop trying to talk someone out of being sad.””
We opened the 2nd season of our Messy Middlescence podcast discussing grief and loss. We continue with that topic – which will be a recurring theme this season – in our interview today with Anne-Marie Lockmyer. Anne-Marie is a grief recovery specialist and award winning author of the book “When Their World Stops: The Essential Guide to Truly Helping Anyone in Grief”.
We feel strongly that our interview with Anne-Marie is one that every person – regardless of age and circumstance – can benefit from. At some point in our lives, someone we love or care deeply for will undergo a devastating loss. While our intent maybe to provide help, support and comfort, we often do not know what to do or say. And perhaps – even worse – we do or say the absolute worst thing. Anne-Marie provides extremely practical advice and concrete examples on how to help someone who is grieving. Despite the difficult topic, Anne-Marie brings hope and positive energy to our conversation.
We hope you will join us as we educate ourselves about grief and discuss with Anne-Marie the following topics:
Anne-Marie’s captivating and inspiring personal story which details her own experience with devastating grief and her journey to becoming a grief recovery specialist;
How grief is a natural part of any significant loss (not just death) and people should be educated about it and given tools to help process it;
Each grief journey is totally unique and has no timetable and no checklists;
Grief is a traumatic emotional injury and its recovery should be viewed similarly to a traumatic physical injury allowing as much time, space and help that is needed to heal;
What we should and should not say to someone who is grieving;
What is helpful and not helpful to someone who is grieving;
The idea that we as a society/culture are not comfortable with unhappy feelings and we need to learn to get comfortable being uncomfortable;
It is impossible to talk someone out of being sad.
We hope you listen and find this episode as valuable and helpful as we did.
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[00:22] Tara Bansal: Hi, this is Tara Conti Bansal and I want to welcome you to season two of our podcast, Messy Middlescence. My sister Christina Conti Donovan and I are in the thick of midlife and trying to help ourselves and others to learn about and hopefully thrive in this unique phase of life.
[00:43] Like adolescence, middlescence is a time of tremendous change touching almost every aspects of our lives. There are the physical and hormonal changes, but also many of the rhythms, relationships and frameworks that have dominated our lives for decades.
[01:00] All start to shift in various ways.
[01:03] Tina and I are figuring this out as we go and we hope you will join us as we dive into and discuss topics and ideas that will help all of us grow and understand this special midlife phase and how to live it better, more meaningfully and joyfully, one day at a time.
[01:22] Tara Bansal: Welcome. This is Tara Conti Bansal and I am here with Christina Conti Donovan and Anne-Marie Lockmyer. We are thrilled and honored to have her on our podcast today.
[01:39] I was connected to her. I do work with Wings for Widows, which is at excellent, incredible organization that matches financial they call them coaches, but certified financial planners with widows or widowers that are needing financial help.
[02:02] And when Tina and I decided one of the topics we wanted to dive into for this season of Messy Middlescence was grief, I asked the president and founder of Wings for Widows who he thought we should talk to as a grief specialist, and he highly recommended Ann Marie.
[02:26] And we agree. I mean, she has written a book that both Tina and I read and loved called When Their World the Essential Guide to Truly Helping Anyone in Grief.
[02:40] And that's what we're here for today. It's to learn from Annemarie. This is her specialty. And welcome. We are, like I said, just honored to have you here.
[02:53] We always start our first question is Brene Brown? I don't know if you listen to her podcast, but what is your story? So we'd love to learn about you, like where you grew up, your family.
[03:07] Just tell us your story, Annemarie.
[03:11] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: Thank you. And I love Brene Brown, by the way, and thank you so much for having me. I welcome any opportunity to talk about this topic because I think grief can actually be a hopeful topic, even though it sounds quite depressing.
[03:24] But I grew up in eastern Canada, actually, and then when I was 18, I moved to California because I wanted to go to school out here in California and I ended up staying.
[03:37] I planned to go back to Canada after I graduated, but I met my husband when I was 18. That's when we first met and fell in love and got married and so stayed here in the United States.
[03:50] And it was a very good life overall. Right ups and downs, like everybody's life. But it was great. Always had a wonderful husband. Very. He was really my best friend.
[04:00] And we had a son. And then just before, it was like five days before our 25th wedding anniversary, I went on a trip with my work. It was actually a fun trip to Turks and Caicos.
[04:13] You know, that's the kind of work trips you want to take. But anyway, it was lovely. I had kissed my husband goodbye. He had a bad headache then, and which he usually isn't, death headaches.
[04:25] But we didn't pay too much attention to it at the time. But. But anyway, when I was in Turks and Caicos in my hotel room, I got a call and it was my cousin.
[04:33] I knew if she was calling me, something was wrong. And she had told me that my husband had suddenly died of a brain aneurysm in our home. And my son found him.
[04:43] He was 19 at the time. And so that headache was obviously an aneurysm. And we had gone back and forth about his headache as I was traveling. And he was one of those kind of guys.
[04:57] I'm so different as a woman. If I'm in pain, I take off to the doctor, but he's like, you know, it's a little better, so I'm going to lay down, or I'm taking some ibuprofen, or now it's worse.
[05:05] And my last text to him was, you know, if it still hurts, you've got to get to the doctor, right? Because you don't get headaches. And he'd already died.
[05:13] So my whole world changed in that moment. Right. Like anybody who has suffered the devastating loss of a loved one knows everything changes for you at that moment. Your world stops at that moment.
[05:27] And wow, it was just never where I saw my life going. And I remember always saying, as long as I was with him, I was okay. Didn't matter, you know, how poor rich we were, where we were.
[05:39] As long as I was with him, I was okay.
[05:41] And that's the one thing I lost. So that led me without going in. It was. It was most painful thing I'd ever experienced in my life. Didn't know pain like that could even exist.
[05:52] And through that situation and experience, I wanted some healing, right? So I went on a journey to try. How do I get help with this? And I don't mean to think that to say the message that you can heal, right?
[06:05] Away. That's not it at all. I sat in my pain for a long time, but I just. I learned so much about grief. It's like an immediate, you know, brief 101 course when you suffer loss.
[06:16] And the first thing I realized was that nobody knew what to do or say to me. And I was just floored at what people did around me. But I must also say that those are all the things that I did before I lost my husband, which led me to write the book.
[06:30] Right? Just, you know, how can somebody needs help? This is. People just don't know what to do. It's not because they don't care. They just don't know what to do.
[06:37] And then as I wanted my own healing, I started getting some training in grief and learning because I was going to therapy and it wasn't helping. So then I became grief certified and trauma certified, and as I experienced my own healing, I kind of applied it all and got a little toolkit and then became a grief specialist myself that I could now use the tools that I learned to help others, because over time, I did.
[07:03] I experienced healing, which I never thought was possible, ever thought was possible, and hope again. And I wanted to help as many people as possible have that same experience. It's wonderful when you can, because you get it when you're in that pain.
[07:18] And so I really love what I do. And I'd always planned on being single for the rest of my life. I had a great husband, never planned on getting married again, and felt I needed to really be okay on my own.
[07:28] And I was okay on my own. And then I just had a lovely surprise come into my life with this man who was a therapist, who was also a widower.
[07:38] And we met through work, actually, and ended up falling in love and getting married. And now we work together to do this with widows, retreats, training therapists, writing, you know, just everything.
[07:49] Grief. Like I said, we're the grief team, and we love what we do. And it's been pretty amazing to get to this point and to look back. I never imagined that this is where I could end up when that day that I found out that my husband died.
[08:04] So that's a lot of information, but I have.
[08:07] Tara Bansal: I have some questions. Growing up in eastern Canada, how many siblings do you have? And what were some of your favorite things growing up that you did?
[08:20] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: Oh, thank you for asking that. So I have two older brothers who we get along great now, but they completely tortured me, as that's what they're supposed to do when nobody else can be mean to you, but they can.
[08:33] And we, you know, we didn't have a lot of money. We had a very simple life. You know, we get to go camping once a year with a tent trailer.
[08:42] Ooh, that was fancy.
[08:44] But we, I really think we had a blissful childhood. Growing up there was a wonderful place to grow up, you know, and you go to school and you get to walk home for lunch and then go back and, you know, you're playing in the neighborhood.
[08:55] Everybody knows everybody and there's only like 100,000 in the town. And I don't know if anybody knows. Eastern Canada especially. They're just extremely friendly and welcoming. And so they're just, you know, you just pop in to each other's house anytime you want.
[09:11] They're just so hospitable. And. And of course, we say sorry all the time and apologize as well. And I still say that. And notice I say sorry. Still not sorry.
[09:23] But it was, you know, I really enjoyed it. It was. It was really. When I look back, it was. I was blessed to have grown up in a. In a childhood like that.
[09:31] I wish more children got to experience it. And that's when all the mothers were home and things like that. And now all my family still in Canada, they're on west in western Canada and they come to visit me during the cold weather, but I still get back there as often as I can.
[09:45] Tara Bansal: When did they move from eastern Canada to western Canada?
[09:48] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: When my parents retired. So, yeah, my brothers went off on their own and we actually born in western Canada. But I don't. I was only there till three, so I don't really count it very much.
[09:58] And there. And my parents are in Edmonton, which I don't know if anyone's been to Alberta. It's like minus 32. It's terrible.
[10:06] Tara Bansal: Very different from where you are in.
[10:08] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: It is even in the summer now I'll have to wear a hat and I'll say it's freezing. I'm definitely changed. But I'm very fortunate because I love the United States and I love Canada, so I've.
[10:19] I've experienced the best of both.
[10:21] Tara Bansal: What did you study when you went to college in California?
[10:26] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: Well, it's. It's such a far away from what I do now. But believe it or not, I studied fashion merchandising, which is why I came to Los Angeles and marketing fashion.
[10:37] And so I was in that industry for a long time. And when my husband died, I was working for the Fashion Institute of Design and merchandising.
[10:45] And so that was always my career. So, you know, I kind of. I never expected that all of a sudden I'd become a grief specialist and very coach, like. Right.
[10:55] But it's.
[10:55] Tara Bansal: And did you love doing fashion?
[10:57] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: I loved it. I loved it. And I did a lot of marketing and public speaking and things like that for fidm. That's what we called it. It's lovely. I know it sounds like it is a very shallow industry, but it was an exciting industry and met some wonderful people.
[11:13] And I'll tell you the most. The best friends that I've ever met in my life were the people I worked with, and they are still my friends. And it's very special.
[11:23] Of course, I had 60 of them with me when my husband died, and that was amazing. So, you know, we've had a special bond that way. And that my best friend then is still my best friend today, and she was my coworker.
[11:35] So.
[11:37] Tara Bansal: How old were you when your husband passed away?
[11:40] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: You know, this just shows you what happens after a length of time, you kind of forget those things. So I must. I'm sorry. Like, I seriously have to. It was 10, 40.
[11:51] 49. 48.
[11:52] Tara Bansal: 48.
[11:53] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: 48. He was 53 and I was 48.
[11:58] Tara Bansal: Wow.
[11:59] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: Yeah. And, you know, it's. It doesn't matter. You know, people say you're too young to be a widow, but it hurts whenever you. It does. You know, whatever age really does.
[12:09] Does it. Does it hurt less when you've been with them for 50 years, you know, and. And you've been together? It's. I've worked with so many different ages of. Of widowed people, and it.
[12:19] It. It hurts no matter what.
[12:21] Tara Bansal: Mm.
[12:22] Part of.
[12:24] Part of the reason I ask is when you look so young. But also just with our show, you know, middlescence. And that's part of why we're talking about grief is because, unfortunately, that is.
[12:37] More and more, we see parents and friends and other people who are dying, and.
[12:45] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: Yes. And even though I know we're specifically talking about death today, but life is full of loss.
[12:52] And grief shows itself in so many ways, and we don't really acknowledge that. So, yes, there's death. But, you know, when I first started working with people, I would work with, like someone who got divorced.
[13:05] Right. Because that's a huge loss. And the same kind of techniques that we would use to process the loss of, you know, someone physically, those kind of losses, or an estranged relationship, someone who's always had a dysfunctional or difficult relationship, maybe with a parent or they've been abused or bullied or whatever.
[13:25] And all those are losses. And I think it's an interesting time in your life when you talk about this age group where what a great time to really look at the hurts and losses in your life that maybe you haven't dealt with that are still weighing on you and making an impact and doing some cleaning.
[13:41] That's what I love to think about. Like, let's. Let's clear some of this out so that you can be the healthiest, you can be emotionally. And so that's why I just mentioned it can be a time of loss.
[13:51] Or your children, for instance.
[13:53] I know again, I'm a little off topic, but I think I told you I had one son, but around 15, he became mentally ill. I really don't know what happened, but just a 10 year horrific battle with mental illness.
[14:06] And that was a loss.
[14:07] That was a huge loss and maybe even more painful. I can't believe it than my husband. But if anyone has someone that you love with mental illness, you watch them suffer every day, you know, you think they might take their own lives.
[14:19] You see them struggling and making bad decisions and they. And you can't do anything. And it's a very.
[14:25] So much conflicting between us. And it was. It was terrible. And that was a huge loss. And even just acknowledging that he wasn't turning out the way I wanted him to be, and that's a.
[14:35] That's a terrible thing to say, but being able to deal with that grief and loss and process it was incredibly healing and made me a better mother because I was able to, you know, in a healthy way, clear some of that.
[14:46] And I'm sorry I ramble about this because I just want people to recognize that whether it's a death or not, life is so full of losses. And even if we can teach our children at an early age how to deal with not getting what you want and loss and pain and allowing them to even feel it right and not talk them out of it.
[15:06] Because all feelings should be welcome, not just good feelings. And then we teach them what to do with them.
[15:15] Tara Bansal: I once heard loss was described as just like your projected future has changed and like, you know, just dealing with that, that you imagine this future and any loss that is a change for the future you imagined.
[15:36] And I loved how you described like divorce or losing your job or changing relationships.
[15:43] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: Yeah, medical losses, physical losses. Yes, I think you have described it really well. I like that term. So now you see life is just full of loss.
[15:53] Tara Bansal: That's true.
[15:54] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: That was a really ple. Pleasant thing to have to say, but there's things we can do about it.
[16:02] Tara Bansal: And I think.
[16:04] I love how you talk about grief can be hopeful and that how much we can learn through grief, too, about ourselves and the people around us.
[16:14] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: Yes.
[16:17] Tara Bansal: How did you get where you are? You talked about just the shift of, you know, losing your husband. And it sounds like that was what I call a life quake, you know, in many ways.
[16:30] But then for you to tell us a little bit of the timeline from, like, being in grief and going through therapy till even deciding you wanted to become a grief specialist.
[16:45] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: Well, first of all, I love your term lifequake. I have not heard that. That is beautiful. I. Can I steal that?
[16:52] Tara Bansal: Yes, you can. It's from I. Now I. It may be from Bruce Spieler. I don't know. He wrote, I may not be saying his last name correctly, but. Or the Modern Elder Academy.
[17:07] But they. They use that term. And so I love it. It's like change that shakes up your life, right? Like that's.
[17:16] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: It's. It's appropriate. So descriptive. I love it so. Well, I went into the pit of despair after my husband died, and I knew that everything was going to change. And so you kind of realize, like, you kind of have to reinvent yourself, Right?
[17:33] I mean, at least I did. He was the major money maker. So I definitely needed to consider what I was going to do financially, professionally wise. And I did stay with the Fashion Institute for a while, which was fine.
[17:47] But then I got an interesting job offer, actually running and writing a entrepreneurial faith and entrepreneurial business academy for a private Christian high school. I don't know how that happened, but they asked me to do that because I was speaking there a lot.
[18:01] But anyway, it was lovely. But what I realized, first of all was, again, I started taking notes because people did not know what to do with me. And I was horrified with the way they responded to me.
[18:12] And I thought, you know, I'm going to write a little pamphlet. I'm just going to start taking notes. But as I did that, it got longer and longer, and I just really felt I'm not the type of person who wants to read, write a book or anything like that, But I just.
[18:24] I am a person of faith. And I really felt, you know, I'm not the type who says that God speaks to me all the time, but I just felt that he was saying, you need to write this book.
[18:33] Just write this book, whatever happens to it, you know, that's up to me, but write this book. And so I did. You Know, really not knowing what I was doing, but I did, and it actually ended up doing really well, which was very pleasant, surprising to me.
[18:46] And it's just a small little book, right? It's gotta be a guidebook, because nobody wants to read my book, because it's all about, you know, helping a grieving person. It's not necessarily a.
[18:55] A happy read, but I think it's a simple and hopefully effective read that you can scan it. And as I said, I was in therapy because I wanted to get better, but I also knew I wasn't going to get better quickly there.
[19:08] You just can't.
[19:09] There's not these steps that you can do. So I would say that I was in the pit of grief for a long time, really a pit of pain. And I often went away, probably about four times for a week away, alone, just to be with my feelings.
[19:26] And people would say, how could you be alone like that? And I'd say, well, I'm with God. Like, I'm not alone. And I need to just wrestle with God. And really, believe me, I did, you know, bawling my eyes out, slamming my body against the wall, saying, this is too much.
[19:40] You've given me too much. I will never survive this. And I was just surviving and then writing and reading and singing. And so I had. I think I would say I had hope, sort of right?
[19:54] And I still had my faith. But God did not take away my pain at all. I felt he sat with me in the pit, so. But I knew it was going to take time.
[20:03] And I went to support groups like I went to Grief Share, which I highly recommend as a support group if anyone's looking for one out there. And then, as I said, I was in therapy, and therapy was someone to talk to, Tara.
[20:15] But I didn't get any better.
[20:18] I didn't get any better. And I remember I went to therapy for three years, and I said to her, I'm still in so much pain. And she would say, well, you've got to get it out.
[20:26] And I said, okay, great, let's get it out. I want to get it out. She goes, well, get it out. And I said, okay, how do I get it out?
[20:33] And what is it? And she could never answer that for me. And so I thought, I've got to do better than this. So then I went to look for my own training on grief, and I went to get certified as a grief specialist.
[20:49] And it's when I walked through that training, the process that I learned there had such a dramatic healing effect on me. It was transforming to me, and it's part of the process that we use now.
[21:00] We've added to it. But I was a different person after that, and that made such a difference. And then as I grew to get more training, it's just like, well, now I want to help people experience what I've experienced.
[21:14] Does that make sense that you just. You get it, you understand it now, you have a solution and you want to walk with people. And so I thought, you know, it took some risk taking, I have to tell you, because I left a very comfortable, good job that I loved very, very much.
[21:33] And, you know, obviously I've got a salary that's regular and I've got my benefits. And I literally just jumped off the cliff and said, you know what? I'm supposed to do this, you know, And I was so scared.
[21:47] So I would say I was really fearful. I'm not a strong person, but I think I had courage. Does that make sense?
[21:54] Tara Bansal: I think you're a strong person.
[21:57] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: But I was. And I'll never forget, I'm like, am I supposed to do this? And it. I was praying about it, and someone called me up and I. And I said, oh, you're calling at the perfect time.
[22:05] I don't know what to do. And he said, on a scale of 1 to 10, how sure are you that God wants you to do this? And I said, 10.
[22:12] I'm so scared. And then I asked myself, what would my husband tell me to do?
[22:19] And he would have said, jump.
[22:21] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[22:22] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: So I jumped and started.
[22:24] Tara Bansal: How old were you when you jumped?
[22:27] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: So I would have been What? I was 43 when he died. So it was about three and a half years later. Okay, so. And then you sucked for, like, 40. Yeah.
[22:34] No, no, I've been doing this because I've been married four years.
[22:37] Did I get that right? Am I 50?
[22:40] Yes. Okay, sorry. Sometimes I'm thinking. So I must have been. I forget how old I am. I think I'm like 54. I'm not.
[22:48] So if I was. If I was, how old was I? When I see. This is what happened. So I was 49. So I must have been about 52. Okay, 52.
[22:57] And total reinventing. And I started my own practice with this. And it just grew. It just grew and grew. And it was really neat because what I could do with people in like six sessions.
[23:08] Right. It's not a long time at all. It's brief, but it's intensive and just starting to write more. And then now, again with my husband, we've just Taken it all so much deeper, right, with our free website and our YouTube channel and just all about helping as many hurting hearts as possible.
[23:29] Because there's just. There's very little in society about what to do with grief. People are really lost.
[23:36] Tara Bansal: And it even sounds like you had a therapist, like a trained person that still, you know, wasn't trained or didn't know what to give you to make you know that.
[23:47] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: Yes. And she was lovely, and it wasn't her fault. You know, my husband is a fabulous therapist, and like I said, he's a widower. And he's the first to say that he knew nothing about grief.
[23:57] Nothing. And then, you know, he got the same training I did after we met. And it's. And again, it's life changing and to see it. And now we train therapists and coaches, right?
[24:08] Because what we do is very. Coach, like, more than therapy, like, so that's why life coaches can do this really well. But to have therapists understand it, too, and that way we can pass it on so that other people can do the same thing.
[24:20] We don't want to keep it a secret to us. And we know it's effective, so.
[24:25] Tara Bansal: And, you know, there's a need. Yeah, there's a need.
[24:28] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: And we go out, you know, we do church workshops. We, you know, we go into churches for free and teach churches. What a great place to understand how to help healing, you know, grieving people.
[24:37] Because the churches can really hurt people at that time. Again, not purposely so, just any place. That's why I love doing your podcast, because anytime we can talk about grief and share a message of hope and just information and education about it, I'm just so excited to do it.
[24:54] And it is kind of crazy that we get so excited about grief, but we do because we know where people can be. And I know, you know, with our widows.
[25:02] Now, we really primarily work with widows and our widows retreats. And they always say, how can you handle working with us? This is so, you know, we're so miserable, but we tell them.
[25:12] But we don't see you where you are. We. We see you where we know you can be.
[25:17] Tara Bansal: Yeah, you think they're, you know, we.
[25:20] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: Know what's possible for you, and that's. That's always our hope.
[25:25] Tara Bansal: That's wonderful. How long were you by yourself and single before you met your current husband?
[25:34] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: Seven years.
[25:35] Tara Bansal: Okay, so you were seven years on your own For a while I was.
[25:39] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: And I. I created a really good life for myself. And I. I figured. I'm not saying this is the case for anybody who's, you know, lost a spouse, whether it be through a divorce or a death.
[25:49] But I just felt I had to be okay on my own before I could be with someone else, because if not, I could tend to bring my wounds or my baggage into that relationship.
[25:59] Right. And I wanted to be a little more whole. And he had no plans to get remarried either. So I just say he's my bonus round. He's a pleasant surprise.
[26:10] You know, I thought, game over. And it's a bonus round.
[26:13] Tara Bansal: Very nice.
[26:15] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: Thank you.
[26:17] Tara Bansal: I just want to acknowledge how practical and wonderful your book was. And I love that you just felt this, like you thought it was gonna be something short and writing down your ideas, and it kept growing and.
[26:34] Yeah. So go ahead. Yeah.
[26:36] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: What I would like to say, if you don't. Cause I. If you don't mind, because I appreciate that, because I wrote the book for friends or, you know, family members of someone who's grieving.
[26:45] But what I have found is that grievers themselves get something from it, because surprisingly, I was it. It validates where they are. And that's what I didn't see happening. That when they read it, they think, oh, my gosh, this describes me.
[27:03] And it was very interesting because my father just recently said he had someone at his condo complex that lost his wife, like, six months ago. And he said, you know, would you think you might want to read my daughter's book?
[27:13] And anyway, he did, and he came back to my dad's condo, knocked on the door, and he was crying.
[27:19] And he said, this helped me so much, like, she gets it. You know, she gets it. And I just thought, oh, isn't that nice? Like, I, I. And I think that's one of the first things that a grieving person needs is someone who gets it, which is hard.
[27:33] And sometimes I will do just a grief orientation with a new griever, just to say, you know what? I'm going to introduce you to grief because there's some things that you need to know.
[27:42] This is a journey that you didn't think that you were going to be on. So I'm not going to share them all right now, dear, because they would be too long.
[27:48] But the first thing is, is that your journey is totally unique, and you are going to experience your grief in a way that someone else may not. And there may even be other people around you that are grieving the same loss.
[28:03] So, for instance, parents who lose a child, right. They often respond very different in their grief. And actually, that's the Number one reason for divorce after losing a child is they grieve differently.
[28:13] And there's a lot of judgment, but when you understand that everybody's grieving, but they grieve in their own way. So to just worry about your grief and to not judge anybody else's and that there's no right way to do this, okay.
[28:26] And there's no steps that we can just check off, because sometimes people are just, let me just check off the steps. Or they just go in denial and ignore it.
[28:34] But sooner or later, you're going to have to deal with it and it will come up. And I don't like to say the word cure, but the only cure for grief is to grieve.
[28:44] You have to allow yourself to grieve. And grief can actually be your companion through the loss.
[28:52] Right? Grief is how your body and your mind is going to adjust if you allow yourself to do it. But it always takes longer than you think it. It's going to take.
[29:03] Right?
[29:04] The other thing would be, please be gracious to yourself and to those around you. Gracious to yourself because you're not okay. You're not okay. You're not supposed to be okay.
[29:17] It. It impacts every part of you, emotionally, physically, mentally, spiritually. Right? And I. To tell grieving people that you're not playing with a full deck, right? You're br. And they'll laugh and they're like.
[29:31] Like your brain truly is. Is limited. You don't think as quickly, you don't respond as quickly. And just telling them that helps them because so many of them think they're losing their mind.
[29:42] Right? But it's your. It's. It's the grief, and that's telling. It's. It's really a traumatic emotional injury. And if you had a traumatic physical injury, you know, all your bones were broken, you would not expect yourself to be running a marathon two weeks later.
[29:58] But somehow with these emotional injuries, we tend to think we should be doing better, right? Go back to work right away, and we're supposed to be okay, and people want to see us okay?
[30:07] And that's not fair. You know, be gracious where you can take off something from your plate. Please do that. But the other important thing is being gracious to those around you, because oftentimes your friends and family, they aren't going to get it at all.
[30:22] And I would say that when we do our widows retreats, the number one thing they talk about on the first night is all the things their friends and family have done to hurt them and how they don't get it.
[30:33] And we laugh about it. And like I said, I was that person who did all those things before my husband died. So we also try to teach them, be gracious.
[30:40] It's not because they're trying to hurt you. They don't know. Right? They don't know. And so they're going to say and do things.
[30:48] Get support when you're ready.
[30:52] Some people want support right away, like me. I was at a grief group right away. Others don't want it for quite some time. But it's not a journey to do alone.
[31:00] It's not a journey to do alone. And the other thing is, it's not a sentence for life. And that's very hard to hear at the beginning. So I'm very cautious about saying it because if anyone would have told me that I could ever heal.
[31:16] And I've said this at conferences before, and they swear at me, the new people, and they should, right? I mean, are you kidding? And it's totally appropriate. That's why I'm cautious to say it.
[31:26] So what I want to say is there is hope.
[31:29] And just please hold on to hope. And if you can't hold on to hope, then I'll hold it for you. But I promise you there's hope.
[31:38] You'll get through it. You don't get over it.
[31:42] And also that your grief is a reflection of your love. You hurt so much because you loved so much. And that is not a quick and easy thing. And when the time comes for some healing, it is never about forgetting your loved one.
[31:59] It is all about remembering them well. All about remembering them well. So I hope that's a little Cliff Notes for.
[32:07] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[32:11] Christina Donovan: Could you maybe talk about. I think we're going to ask the reverse of this question. So I don't know if this is the appropriate time, but what are some of the things you should definitely not do or not say to somebody who is grieving?
[32:25] And of course, there's the opposite side.
[32:30] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: Let's start with what not to say, because those are the things that most of us say. And I will. The first thing is I will always say save very little.
[32:40] Say very little. Because first of all, you can't fix it.
[32:45] You can't fix it. So stop trying to talk someone out of being sad. And, you know, this is something that we learn all the time, because what do we do when children are sad?
[32:58] If they don't get the part in the play, they don't make the team, they don't get invited to the party. What do we do?
[33:05] Don't cry.
[33:06] Tara Bansal: Get over it.
[33:06] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: Yeah, they weren't your friends anyway. You'll get the next part right. As opposed to saying, gee, that has to feel really terrible. You must be so disappointed. I can understand that.
[33:18] Really hurts. I'm sorry that happened. And just. You see what I'm saying? Like allowing them and me, who knows this better than anyone, when I see someone sad, that's my instinct right away.
[33:30] And I have to catch myself. Don't do that, Anne Marie. Because it doesn't help them anyway.
[33:36] But we think it does because we want to cheer them up, right? And we're not. And what really it is, it's about us.
[33:44] We are not comfortable with unhappy feelings, Right? And so we want to fix it. So I would say don't try to say anything to make them feel better. Anything that starts with at least is no at this is what I heard.
[34:00] At least he went fast. Okay.
[34:03] At least you had a good marriage.
[34:06] You know.
[34:08] What was the other thing?
[34:11] Tara Bansal: At least you have your son. Did anyone say that?
[34:13] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: Well, and you know, they'll say that to parents. At least you have other children. At least you can have other children. It's like, no, at least you know what you're doing.
[34:21] You're negating someone's hurt there, right? You're negating someone's hurt. So anything with that least. The other thing is, I know how you feel. I lost my sister. Excuse me? No, no, you don't know how I feel.
[34:35] Even if you lost your husband, you don't know how I feel. So please don't say that. And then especially when I'm at churches and I've talked to, with pastors, I say this all the time.
[34:47] Please don't ever say God will never give you more than you can handle, you know, and that people say that a lot. And really when they're. It's not that God can't be there and comfort you, but I think what they're referring to often is God will not allow you to be tempted more than you're able to withstand.
[35:05] You know that verse about how he always provides a way of escape, and that has to do with temptation. But when we're talking about these kind of things, I really believe God, if you.
[35:14] If you are a person of faith, allows you to have more than you can handle all the time, but it's not more than he can handle. But it doesn't mean that it still won't hurt like hell.
[35:23] Pardon my language. Does that make sense? And so I just. Like I said, he's A great pit partner. So don't. Because then people have a. They get mad at God, right?
[35:34] And it's often a crisis of faith. Or now, I guess, God, his time was up and God called him home. Or he must have needed another angel in heaven. You know, it was his time.
[35:44] It was God's will. Really. That's not helpful at all.
[35:48] Now, some people may want scripture. I'm not saying, you know, at the right time, but that's. And we have. I have a whole list in my book, too. And it really is funny when you get together with grieving people and they'll.
[36:00] We'll say, okay, you think that that sounds bad? Well, look what this person said to me. So, for instance, I will bring this up because we're. I know this will be after the holidays, but I just will tell you, I would think someone who lost a child and someone who lost a spouse to get those happy family Christmas cards really hard was very painful for me.
[36:21] And I had one widow friend, like, she just tear them up and throw them in the, you know, trash, like, are you kidding me? Why would you send this to me?
[36:27] You know, my. My family's been, like you said, a lifequake, right? I felt like I didn't even have a family anymore.
[36:34] So those hurt. Now, not everybody's going to respond that way, but I did. But then when my friend, my best friend who read my book, read that, she said, oh, my gosh, I've been doing the wrong thing.
[36:45] Right? She's the one who sends the happy family Christmas card. So the next year, she sent the happy family Christmas card with the picture, but she had a picture of me that she cut out, and she posted it.
[36:57] She put it in her family card, and she said, you will always be part of our family. Now, what do you think that did for me?
[37:06] Christina Donovan: Yeah, that's amazing.
[37:07] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: And you see the difference. It was just her being educated.
[37:12] So that was just all the other thing that people say to. Usually not early on, although I actually had someone say this. She said they said it to her within three months.
[37:22] Wow. You're still. You're not over it yet.
[37:25] You got to move on. You got to move on. Get busy, keep busy. So, again, trying to help. Does that help? Are those good?
[37:33] Tara Bansal: Oh, those are excellent. And part of that, to me, the one that I'm getting teary and Ann Marie, you're the one that's like. But that God won't give you more than you can handle.
[37:46] Like. And I. I go to like them. What's wrong with Me because I don't feel like I can handle this. And so then there's just like the self judgment and the questioning and as you said, like the, you know, thank.
[38:01] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: You for saying that. Because if, if it. You do think you're not a good Christian or person of faith, where I'm here, I wrestled with God all the time.
[38:12] And I will tell you, between that and my son's mental illness, my verse was, though you slay me, I will trust you like you are slaying me. What are you doing?
[38:23] I was not pleased with him and he was not making me feel better. And I was, I would bawl and cry and barely, barely making it, but I just knew he was there.
[38:33] But, you know, I couldn't handle it. And by the way, please don't tell them they're strong.
[38:39] We get that all the time. You're so strong. Or be strong. I was. And I said I'm not strong. I'm barely holding on. I have two choices. Die or live.
[38:50] So just because I'm alive does not mean I'm strong. And you telling me that I'm strong again makes me feel there's something wrong with me because I'm not strong and I'm supposed to be strong and it makes me feel like I have to pretend I'm okay when I'm not okay.
[39:07] And I think life is full of things that we cannot handle and that we just keeping our head above water often, you know, and it's the. Oh, the other thing I'm sorry that I usually like to say to somebody and most people can relate to this.
[39:27] I wouldn't have taken my own life, but if a bus hit me on the way home from work, I was a okay with that. And it is very common after a devastating loss for the griever to lose their zest for life.
[39:43] And that's not the same as wanting to kill yourself.
[39:47] And it is normal and appropriate.
[39:49] My husband Ron says his thing was, you know, now I lay me down to sleep, you know, I pray the Lord my soul to keep. If I should die before I awake, I'm a okay with that.
[39:59] You know, it just.
[40:01] And, and you may have a lot of good things in your life and oftentimes people will say, well, you know, you have your grandchildren, so you have to be happy for them or you have other.
[40:10] You have these good things in your life and enjoy that. And I will tell the griever, if you're not enjoying any of those things, that's normal. And they'll say, it is And I'll say, yeah, because you right now have a shroud, a cloud of sorrow that you filter everything, right.
[40:27] So you have this cloud of sorrow in front of your eyes, and everything goes through that filter. So even the things that are good in your life, you're usually not able to appreciate, not because they're not good.
[40:39] It's your. It's your filter, and it is normal and appropriate. So I'm never alarmed, but the people around them are alarmed.
[40:46] Right.
[40:48] And with time, that will change.
[40:51] But you gotta have a lot of. A lot of grace for grieving people.
[40:57] Tara Bansal: I think that's a great reminder. And the other is that nobody has the same timeline. Right.
[41:05] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: Like that there.
[41:07] Tara Bansal: I think as a society, as you said, people comment or say, you know, you need to move on, or you need to.
[41:17] And that can be hard when you're not ready to move on and you're not.
[41:22] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: What does move on mean anyway? I mean, what a. No, you know, you have to. You will get through it, but to move on. And I remember, and God bless them.
[41:31] I won't say who this is, but it was a family member and it hadn't even been a year yet, but I was sharing some of my pain. And he said, well, it's been almost a year, and I'm thinking, yes, and, yeah, and.
[41:49] And oftentimes, not all the time, but oftentimes you think, I'm going to get through this first year, and then the second year hits and you can even feel worse, if that's even possible.
[42:00] But it's. It's not worse. As in, like, you feel terribly. You do feel terrible, but it's actually good because it's part of the grief. Like you're grieving in a deeper way often because there's just so much shock and numbness in the first year.
[42:13] It's hard, even though you're in so much pain and there's so many firsts. And I found, for me, it was like after the first year, oh, my gosh, this is real.
[42:20] This is like, this is. This is true. And so there was another level, but it was also part of the grieving process.
[42:29] Tara Bansal: And I also wonder if it's harder because people have expectations that you need to, you know.
[42:35] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: Absolutely.
[42:36] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[42:37] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: And you do. But oftentimes you do like to. To hear you say that even you think that you should be able to handle all these things. Right. And that there's something wrong with you and we need permission.
[42:48] Permission, right. To be with those feelings, to. To sit with this grief and the pain of Whatever it is that we're going through. And then as we move through it.
[43:02] And it's a roller coaster ride, right up and down and back and forth. And we're not regressing. I tell people it's all part of the journey, but there's mountains and pits in it.
[43:11] And so oftentimes people get discouraged because they think they're moving backwards and they're not. It's. It's just an. Again, we are so uneducated about grief, so that's why we don't know what to do.
[43:24] And I know most of the people that we work with will tell them, it's not that you don't want to get better. You just have no idea what to do.
[43:33] You just need tools. And that's where we're now. Not everybody needs to do what we do. Some people do just fine on their own. But for those that get stuck, that's what we specialize in.
[43:44] Tara Bansal: And you felt like you were stuck?
[43:46] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: Absolutely stuck? Yeah, absolutely stuck. And I knew there was stuff there. I didn't know what it was. And now the process that we use, it just brings everything to the surface.
[43:59] Things that you may know, but things that you would have no idea. And I say, like, our process doesn't create pain, but it reveals pain that you have. And then when we can reveal it and do something with it.
[44:12] So, you know, we call it processing. But what I love really is using the word clearing, because when we can clear it, then we're healing some of the heart. I call our work heart work, not homework, because it's all about the heart.
[44:25] It's never about the brain when we're talking about grief. It's always heart. So it's not even about truth. It's about emotions. And sometimes the emotions may not be true. You know, you may blame yourself for something that wasn't your fault at all.
[44:37] You could have regrets, but we're going to process them like they're true because you're carrying them. And when we can clear that and release some of the pain, then we can fill the heart with the happy memories, right?
[44:50] And then your filter changes so that you can see things. And that's what we'll hear from our clients is like, oh, my gosh, they'll come back and people will say, you look lighter, your eyes are brighter, and they feel lighter.
[45:04] And then, then we can ask the question, especially with widows, who am I now? Because often widowed people, they're trying to rediscover who they are, but they haven't had any Healing yet.
[45:15] So how can you even ask that question when you're still pretty much in crisis? Right. You know, you're. You're in icu. You know, you're not in recovery. And that's unfair, too.
[45:25] And that, again, makes them feel like there's something wrong with them and there isn't.
[45:30] Tara Bansal: Mm.
[45:31] Christina Donovan: Do you feel like in our society, a lot of the kind of traditions or ways people used to deal with grief have changed?
[45:45] I feel like grief now is something that. I mean, obviously you talk about it, but I know, like, a long time ago, there were strict rules around when you could go outside the house, which I'm sure some people may have found.
[45:59] Tara Bansal: Comfort or unpleasant or.
[46:02] Christina Donovan: But also sort of formed like a protection for somebody. Like, you didn't even have to worry about doing anything for a year after somebody. You were. Somebody in your household died.
[46:12] Like, it was like this unwritten, you know, society rule that you just. You could stay home and do nothing.
[46:18] And granted, that's for people of a certain class and so forth, but I mean, it just seems like years ago there were more. It was a more open thing, that there were more.
[46:31] People knew better how to deal with grief and how to deal with loved ones, dealing with grief.
[46:37] Tara Bansal: Do you agree with that or what?
[46:39] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: I think. I think you bring up a really good point.
[46:42] Yes. I mean, look at what they did. You know, even when you look in biblical times, what they did, right, with mourning and the things that they did there when someone died, all the different rituals.
[46:54] And there is a comfort to rituals. Does that make sense? There certainly can be. And even the wearing black, right? The wearing black. And oftentimes people would wear black for months or like you said, well over a year, you know, longer than that.
[47:11] And that was to let people know, I'm mourning, right? I'm mourning. And they were recognized as that. And even the services that we do now, and I resemble that, you know, oftentimes, like, we did a celebration of life, right.
[47:26] Which was lovely. And it's, you know, because that's, you know, I wanted to remember my husband that way. But the actual funeral, if you do a. You know, a lot of the funerals and that and the.
[47:38] In the. The way they were done now in the past, there is like a lamenting, right. There's rights there. There's things that are built into the service to allow for mourning.
[47:49] Right. The actual mourning process. And I think there's really something to be said for that. So I do agree with you. And, you know, I wish, you know, some people used to wear things on their arm.
[47:59] Have you seen the armbands and things like that? Just to recognize. And I really think, and I don't know, maybe you ladies could help me when we always had to be happy, feeling like I don't get it.
[48:13] And, you know, I don't even want to get onto social media and all that, but look at all that. Like, everybody always tells their happy stories and it's not even real.
[48:21] So, you know, it's not just about grief. It's like any kind of pain, any kind of bad feelings. I don't know where we got this that we're not supposed to feel bad feelings, just happy feelings, just good feelings, when the healthiest person is going to be allowed to experience all of them and learn how to do that.
[48:40] And I appreciate what you said about the past because I think that the biggest thing that most people don't realize is that grievers, the griever themselves and those around you, they are going to grieve much longer than they think they will and they're going to hurt much more than they think they will.
[49:00] And it's hard in a society where you get how much bereavement from work, you know, it's laughable. It's laughable. And by the way, if you understood the millions and millions I used to do a whole presentation on it of dollars that are lost in the workplace from grieving people going back to work because they're not at their best.
[49:20] And I've done a lot of presentations to human resource departments on how to equip them to welcome a griever back. And there's a lot they can do to make it better.
[49:30] So I really appreciate your point there about. I think in that way we did do it better in the past. And I'm hoping that society seems to be coming more aware of mental health right now.
[49:42] I'm hoping the same will happen with grief.
[49:45] Yeah.
[49:46] Tara Bansal: As part of. I mean, I feel like right now you hear all the time of recognizing your emotions and trying to, I don't know, maybe not broadcast them, but like to try to understand your emotions and feel them, that that can relate to this and as a society that we can't all be happy all the time.
[50:08] Like, that's just not life.
[50:10] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: I mean, and we, we don't have to be led by our emotions necessarily. You know, I understand that. But to honor them and say even what's going on, like a disappointment, give yourself time, any disappointment, to sit with the disappointment and be disappointed.
[50:25] Right. Like, this is a Huge disappointment. And. But if you acknowledge it and you. You even talk about it, and it's amazing what that does for you to adjust. It's part of adjusting, as opposed to stuffing.
[50:39] Does that make sense? Yeah. And when we stuff, nothing gets released. But when we. When we actually talk about it and adjust, then, you know, then we can adjust. And it's.
[50:49] It's. It's so hard because.
[50:52] And I'm not comfortable with it myself, so, you know, when you see someone around, you just. You just. I don't know where any feelings should be welcome. We don't want to be ruled by feelings, but it allows you to be so healthy.
[51:05] And what I love about the process that we do, too, it's not just about the person that you're grieving and helping get some healing there. It's about making you as emotionally healthy as possible.
[51:16] We're all walking around with a backpack full of. Can I say the word? ****. I'm sorry. You know, it's just. And we don't even realize that we're walking with it until we start releasing it.
[51:27] And it's so neat because, you know, once you've done it, once you have the tools for everything. And so, for instance, even my husband had some really painful work experiences where he was betrayed at work and things like that.
[51:39] And I'm sure there's some people that can relate to that, and we use these tools to process that. And boy, how healing that was, right? Because he was still carrying those wounds.
[51:50] And what a relief whenever you can get any of that taken care of. So I wish we really cared about getting emotionally healthy. And like you said, Tara, we don't want to necessarily broadcast our feelings to everybody.
[52:02] You want to pick and choose. But we do want to allow ourselves and even recognize what's happening, especially for children. We can teach children at a very early age. And another thing that I've seen, too, going on, like churches, for instance.
[52:16] And I've seen some funeral homes do this, too, like once a year, usually at Christmas time. But it could be anywhere where they have a ceremony, right? To remember everybody that died that year, everybody who lost somebody, and they have their pictures up there in candles and they get an ornament.
[52:32] Like, recognizing them is wonderful.
[52:35] I used to have, you know, something on the day my husband died. Now what we do, and we just did it yesterday, would have been the 65th birthday. We go out to his favorite restaurant on his birthday, do things like that to remind you.
[52:49] Yes. My. My husband has the. His Diane tree, a tree he planted you know, and they go out and they talk to it all the time, you know, and his daughter.
[52:58] But there's. There's things. You want to bring that person with you. They're still part of you, but they're not physically part of you.
[53:07] Tara Bansal: So if someone just lost a loved one, what should we say to them and what should we try to do? So kind of switching what we talked.
[53:15] Christina Donovan: About, what we shouldn't do, but now.
[53:18] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: Okay, so here's the best one I have to tell you is you look at them, you grab their hand, or you just look at them and you say, I have no words.
[53:30] I have no words. I am so sorry.
[53:36] I love them, too. Do you want to say that, too? I love them, too. I'm devastated. And you give them a big hug.
[53:43] Or it could just be, I love you, I love you, and I am going to be here for you.
[53:48] See how there's. What can you say? Yeah. What can you possibly say?
[53:53] Christina Donovan: I think it's hard, though. People feel like they have to fill that. I think people are uncomfortable with silence or with exactly saying something. And I mean, I am. I find myself just blathering on and saying stupidest things.
[54:07] But I think that it's something that. I think if you really think about what you're saying, it makes so much sense to. You can be silent. They'll feel your presence, you know, that's the presence.
[54:19] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: But I appreciate what you're saying, Tina, because you're trying to help. You're uncomfortable, you know? And so I would say the two things that a friend or someone needs to know is, first of all, you can't fix it.
[54:31] So understand that there's not one thing you can say to make this any better. Not one thing. But there's plenty you can say to make it worse.
[54:39] Just don't say those things. Which, by the way, is a good rule for life in general. Just in general, if you're having problems with your kids, maybe you can't make it better, but you could say a lot of things right now that would make it worse.
[54:50] Okay, so that. That's a good one. But the other thing is get comfortable being uncomfortable. Right. This is an uncomfortable spot. So if you understand that, that's normal, because people would turn the other way right.
[55:07] When they saw me coming because they didn't know what to say. So I did have. I've had a couple of people tell me, you know, there was a. Someone that I.
[55:15] My friend at church who's lost someone they lost over six months ago, and I've been avoiding them, but I read your book and now I knew what to say. So I went up, you know, I went up and I knew what to say.
[55:25] And so that helped. And so just as far as words, it's just, I love you, I care. I miss them too. A hug. That's it. As far as doing, I would always say, think of practical needs.
[55:39] Practical needs. Please don't ever say, call me if you need anything, because they won't call. Yeah, I never called.
[55:47] So and so I would say, I can do this for you. I would love to come over, for instance, Saturday, I have three hours. I would like to do something for you.
[56:00] I can come and clean the house. I can come watch the children. I can come take you out for lunch. What would you like to do? Right? Give them a choice.
[56:10] Or I'd like to do this for you. Check. Can I do that? When do you need a break?
[56:15] What practical needs do you see? Do they need some home repair help? Do they need help organizing things right now? Would they need help with decorations? But look for practical needs and reach out to them for that.
[56:28] If you just want to be emotional support, then I would say put it on your calendar or set a timer. You know, on Tuesday, every Tuesday, I'm going to text, hey, I love you.
[56:41] I'm thinking about you. I'm praying for you. On a scale of 1 to 10, or what are your feelings today? You know, whatever. Just, you know, or how can I pray for you?
[56:49] Just anything but remind yourself those kind of things. And let's be honest, after the service, almost everybody leaves.
[56:58] And that's the worst time for us because we get all this attention and then everybody, and I understand it, everybody's life goes back to normal. You know, they have a life, but mine had stopped.
[57:10] And we get very offended. It's like, hey, doesn't anyone see my world stopped here? And you're still going along like, life's normal. It's not normal. So. But that will take reminders because you're busy.
[57:21] And like I said, me, who knows this more than anybody, I have to push myself sometimes to reach out to people that I know. It's important because I just get tired or overwhelmed.
[57:32] But just that little thing, writing them a note, you could just even write them a note. Remember to those special days, right? Whether it be like Father's Day, if you remember the anniversary of their death, it's wonderful to send something like that.
[57:47] But practical needs, I would say, are really important too. And just your gift of presence, just even just being There oftentimes, you know, I've said, I'm just going to be there.
[57:57] I'm not going to say anything. I'm just going to be there.
[58:00] And I can be your fun friend, you know, or I can be the one you cry with.
[58:05] Does that help? Is that. That's.
[58:07] Christina Donovan: Yeah, I think that's very helpful. I do have one question, though. I'm. I guess when should you take no from somebody who, like, if you have offered things, how much should you push?
[58:17] You know, if you. Like, if they say no, should you just back off? If, you know, like, I want to help you clean your house, I'd like to come over and they say no.
[58:27] Like, should you just say okay, or.
[58:31] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: If there were and should you keep pushing?
[58:33] Christina Donovan: No, I guess that's.
[58:34] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: I would just say no. I appreciate that. Because some people are going to do that unless you're a really close friend. Like, I have a friend, one of my very best friends, who's pushy.
[58:45] Does that make sense? And she just kind of came in and took over and boss me around. And I didn't always agree, but she was usually right and she. We had that kind of relationship, so.
[58:54] But that's what we had. But I think all you do is you offer. And if they say no, you can say, okay, but I just want you to know the offer stands.
[59:01] And I might check. And I might check in with you a month from now. They may not want it. Yeah, that's okay. The other thing is to remember, please is giving them permission to say no to things.
[59:13] Like you might invite them to events. And it's often nice to say, hey, you know, we're having a party or we're having this thing and we'd love you to come, but if you're not up to it, we totally understand.
[59:26] So. But we'd love to have you. And if you feel like it, you can come. And if at the last minute you can't handle it, that's okay too.
[59:34] Right? Because they can change. You know, they can wanna come and then they just change their mind. So be being really gracious also, especially, again, a widowed person going back to a place like a church or a group or someplace where they're used to going with their partner is so uncomfortable for them.
[59:53] It was awful for me. And I remember going to church. This couple came and they saved a seat for me every time.
[01:00:00] And they said, anne Marie, come sit with us. Come sit with us, come sit with us. I will never forget that.
[01:00:07] And I'm bawling my eyes out all the time, you know, and. And they would hold my hand, but that they just. And it was interesting. It was the last couple I would have ever expected.
[01:00:15] They weren't even really close friends of mine, but they came and did that. So just recognizing where they might feel alone or, you know, if you don't want to go to that alone because you're used to going with someone, I can come and pick you up.
[01:00:26] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[01:00:27] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: And we can stay as long as we want. And given permission, you know, I went to a friend's wedding and I got up and ran out of the reception. I couldn't take it.
[01:00:37] And, you know, I was so embarrassed. But it happens. And she was very gracious about it. So, again, be gracious to us as grievers.
[01:00:48] Tara Bansal: We're pretty much out of time. I feel like I could talk to you forever.
[01:00:53] What do you think we should have asked that we didn't. Or something that you just feel like you don't want to.
[01:01:04] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: I think what I really would like to get across to anyone who's in that pit of pain from grief, that what I have, and I think I've said it already, but I would like to say it again that we often hear, and I've heard this message, by the way, at many grief support organizations, that this is something forever.
[01:01:27] Right. That you'll never get over it. You'll never recover. You're going to hurt forever. And I don't believe that's true because I've seen it myself, and I've worked with hundreds of people now, and I've seen that healing can happen.
[01:01:44] But I want to be very careful. It's not about getting over it. That's not what I'm saying.
[01:01:49] After a devastating loss, you will be different and your life will be different.
[01:01:57] But in time.
[01:01:59] And not just time. It doesn't just take time. It's what you do with that time. When you're ready, okay. There's a time to just grieve and be in the pity pot.
[01:02:10] Do you know what I mean? And that's exactly where you're supposed to be. But after some time, there are some healing steps that can be taken to help free your heart from the pain, leave you with the happy memories and rediscover who you are while still remembering your loved one well, and bringing them with you.
[01:02:32] You can smile again. You can think about them. I can hear my husband's and my song and sing to it. Whereas before I just. I couldn't even bear to hear it.
[01:02:44] And someone who's in that Spot now of pain, cannot understand it. But I want you to hold on to that hope. And I. So. So I don't want you to believe what's being said there.
[01:02:53] I have worked with so many parents who have lost children, young children, adult children to suicide. And I am telling you, they're living.
[01:03:04] They have had so much pain, but they have also had healing.
[01:03:09] And it takes work. There's no way around the pain. You can't fast track it. You got to feel it.
[01:03:17] But it's brutal. But it's also good. I call what we do brutiful. Does that make sense?
[01:03:25] It is because it's hard work. It's brutal work. But on the other side, there is beauty. I am very different. I'm a lot of myself, but I am a better version of who I am, a better version of myself.
[01:03:39] My husband is a better version. Because through pain, not in the beginning, but later came humility, understanding, sensitivity. Right.
[01:03:50] Flexibility, adjusting, dependence on God. There's just so much more of me now. And now I can pour into other people.
[01:04:02] So there is growth. I have a lot of cracks. Okay. And I wrote a poem about, like, having a beautiful vase that's broken to pieces. And that's what I felt like God did to me, was he glued me back together.
[01:04:14] So the vase looks different and it's got all these cracks, but it's still beautiful.
[01:04:20] Does that make sense? That's kind of how I feel.
[01:04:23] And I don't want to tell people that you're supposed to rush through this and that it's not hard and that you need to take time to grieve. But please don't cover it up.
[01:04:35] Don't just ignore it because it's going to come out one way or the other. But I promise you, there is hope. There is hope. And if you're going through this, though, I am so sorry, because it's nothing we would ever pick or shoes to go through.
[01:04:51] But there's another side.
[01:04:54] There's another side.
[01:04:56] Tara Bansal: And to have hope for that, I think is what is important. And that was beautiful. I just feel like that's the perfect way to finish. So thank you. Anne Marie.
[01:05:05] Anne-Marie Lockmyer: Take hope from me. Take hope from me. Because I remember. I remember.
[01:05:10] Tara Bansal: And you're an inspiration. Yes. Thank you for what you do. Thank you.
[01:05:15] Christina Donovan: Thank you, thank you.
[01:05:17] Tara Bansal: Today's recommendation are two things that I love, especially when I travel. The first is a collapsible laundry basket.
[01:05:27] And it was recommended from Modern, Ms. Darcy and a travel post.
[01:05:33] It collapses down to about 6 by 6 inches and we love it. It doesn't weigh hardly anything and when you travel to have somewhere to put all the dirty laundry and you can use it as a real laundry basket when it opens up I will include the link for that on the website.
[01:05:55] The other is what I gave and I think I mentioned this at the physical favorite things party. It's six hooks well they're rubberized that go over the door and we also travel with these everywhere it just often you need places to hang things either towels or coats or jackets and we bring these with us everywhere.
[01:06:19] They are not very expensive but we love them and hope you check them out too.
[01:06:26] Christina Donovan: For show notes and other information about our podcast please Visit our website messymiddlesence.com if you enjoyed listening please help spread the word about our podcast by sending a link to a family member or friend and don't forget to leave a positive rating or review for us.
[01:06:45] As always, we hope you will return for more.
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Wings for Widow’s Organization
The term “lifequake” comes from Bruce Feiler’s book Life is in the Transitions: Mastering Change at Any Age
YouTube Video: Bruce Feiler: LifeQuakes, Life Transitions and More!
Anne-Marie’s Grief & Trauma Healing Network Website: https://griefandtraumahealing.com
Widow Retreat Information: https://www.griefandtraumahealing.com/widows-grief-retreat/
Anne-Marie’s free online grief support site: MyGriefCare.com - https://www.mygriefcare.com
Your Grief Guides YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxXrACWW7qjFlQ1A26onCMQ
Anne-Marie’s 8-time award-winning book “When Their World Stops - The Essential Guide to Truly Helping Anyone in Grief”
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Anne-Marie Lockmyer offers hope and healing to the broken hearts of grief.
Anne-Marie and her partner and husband, Ron Gray are professional grief specialists and both lost their beloved spouses. Anne-Marie is a grief specialist, certified in critical incident stress debriefing, a certified trauma-integrative practitioner, an 8-time award-winning author on grief, and founder of The Grief & Trauma Healing Network, LLC in Orange, California.
Ron is a master marriage and family therapist specializing in grief and related trauma. After losing their spouses, they personally know the pain and devastation that grief and loss cause and are living proof that you can go from surviving to thriving.
They offer life-changing grief support with intensive grief healing programs, The Next Chapter Retreat for Widows, which is their favorite event to do, family grief orientation sessions, and specialize in helping people heal from lingering trauma symptoms associated with grief and loss.
They created MyGriefCare.com - a free online grief support website, and a grief YouTube Channel (@Your-Grief-Guides).
They work with people worldwide and offer crisis grief support for businesses, grief training for therapists and coaches, and free workshops to train churches in grief and speak on grief wherever they can. They are passionate about advocating for and loving grievers and educating society on grief and loss.
Website: Grief & Trauma Healing Network
https://griefandtraumahealing.com
Widow Retreat Information:
https://www.griefandtraumahealing.com/widows-grief-retreat/
Her free online grief support site: MyGriefCare.com
Your Grief Guides YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxXrACWW7qjFlQ1A26onCMQ
Anne-Marie’s 8-time award-winning book “When Their World Stops - The Essential Guide to Truly Helping Anyone in Grief”