14. Timeless Happiness -1

When I think about retirement, it’s just like a blank slate. I have a really difficult time trying to envision what retirement will be for us.
— Christina Donovan

This podcast episode revolves around a class Tara taught at the Princeton Adult School called Timeless Happiness. This class focused on how to prepare for your next phase - be it a career change, role change or retirement.

Many of the most common retirement challenges are discussed including identity loss and time management. The importance of flexibility, patience, and exploration is also emphasized.

Christina and Tara delve into the essential elements of a well lived life, including contribution, relationships, health, and community engagement.

Specific exercises from the class are shared such as envisioning an ideal retirement week and assessing personal areas of improvement.

The podcast highlights the importance of finding happiness, embracing change, and designing a fulfilling retirement next phase based on individual values and aspirations. Overall, it offers valuable advice and guidance for navigating through the different phases and aspects of the second half of life.

 
 
  • [00:21] Christina Donovan: Do you feel the need for change in your life, but are not sure or why or when or how? Do you feel a pressure of running out of time? Do you spend most of your time doing things that are not important to you anymore? These are all symptoms or characteristics of middlescence. And this is our podcast, messy middle lessons.

    [00:44] Tara Bansal: Hello, this is Tara Bansel and I'm here with Christina Donovan. And today we are going to talk about a class that I used to teach at the Princeton adult school. Talking to Kelly Walenciak reminded me how much I believe in this class and I'm passionate about it. And so much of what she said just resonated with me and Tina and I thought it would be good to talk more about this class here. The class was called Timeless Happiness and it was presented for people approaching retirement and how to prepare for it and the different factors and aspects of preparing for retirement, financial being one. But a huge focus was beyond the financial. And every time I did the class, I polled the class to see what areas they wanted to focus more on. So one year we did focus a lot on finances, and one year we didn't, I don't even think spent a whole class on finances. So it was five sessions. I enjoyed it very much and the feedback was positive. I didn't title it specific to retirement because I also believe that most of this can be applied at any age. But what we're going to talk about today is focused more around the traditional retirement and what that would mean. And Tina's going to ask me questions because we thought that would make it a little easier.

    [02:36] Christina Donovan: How many years did you teach the class, Tara? I can't remember.

    [02:39] Tara Bansal: I think I taught it. So it was offered in the spring and the fall. I probably only taught it five or six times. That's a lot, though. Yeah, it doesn't feel like that now.

    [02:53] Christina Donovan: What was the average age of people taking the class?

    [02:58] Tara Bansal: I would say most people were between 55 and 65.

    [03:04] Christina Donovan: Yeah.

    [03:05] Tara Bansal: And the Princeton adult school, I would say, is definitely skewed more towards people in that age group. Yeah. And the people who take it generally took more than one class. It was like you're either a groupie and do it or you don't. And they have so many different things that are there that they offer.

    [03:29] Christina Donovan: Do you feel like there's a recommended age that people should really start seriously thinking about and maybe formally planning the non financial aspect of their retirement?

    [03:48] Tara Bansal: There is no ideal age. I would say it depends on when you're ready for a big change. And I would say waiting until after you leave your work is not ideal. Some people are thrown that curveball where they walk into work one day and they are told they are laid off or they get a package. So that is not ideal. Still definitely possible. I think like two to three years ahead of whenever you want to be making that big change and leaving your, you know, the job or the career or the role that you've had for a long time, because you want time and space to think about it and try some different things and explore. Which is part of what this podcast is about, is hopefully getting people to start thinking about it sooner. I think you could start as early as five years ahead, but a lot changes and there's so many curveballs that can come up. But I guess two years ahead, I think is about is a good summation in my background.

    [05:13] Christina Donovan: I do know I'm two years older than you, and I think Matt and I are a little closer to retirement, but I say this to my husband all the time. When I think about retirement, it's just like a blank slate. I have a really difficult time trying to envision what retirement will be for us. And I feel like it's difficult, I guess, to get started on that process. And that's why, I don't know, I think your class, I wish I could have taken it. And I do think there are some really great exercises that we'll probably talk about at the end. So, anyway, I'm getting ahead of myself.

    [05:56] Tara Bansal: But I think you bring up a good point that it's like jumping off a cliff or like this big black hole that people don't know. And that's part of why you want some time and some space, and it's not that easy.

    [06:19] Christina Donovan: Right?

    [06:20] Tara Bansal: And maybe for some people it is easy, but I guess I want to acknowledge that for many people it's not. And it also brings this pressure or heaviness of like, I don't want to screw this up, I want to do this right. And part of a theme of my class is a little bit let go of that because most people, it takes a few tries to kind of really figure it out and see. And with such a drastic change or a lifequake, there's repercussions that you may not and cannot plan for or foresee. And that's part of this class, is to get you to start thinking in different maybe baby steps. Or in my life coaching course, they're called turtle steps. Like literally, what little, little bit and starting to think is the first one.

    [07:22] Christina Donovan: Yes, we'll probably get to this later. But I think that's a really good point, is that you just have to start and you have to assume that things are going to change. And that just by starting to think about things, that may not be where you end up. Right. But you have to start somewhere.

    [07:50] Tara Bansal: And it's better to start than not to start, I guess, is the other. By putting it off, it's not helping in any way.

    [08:00] Christina Donovan: I mean, in your class, you start by talking about the five essential elements of retirement. Do you want to take a minute and kind of talk about.

    [08:11] Tara Bansal: So this class I pulled from lots of different books and the well being. The five essential elements was written by Tom Rath and Jim Harder. And the five essential elements that they listed were career or to me, you can reframe that to contribution. So how you occupy your time contributing to others or to a cause, then they talk about social, which is strong relationships, the connections and the people that you connect with in your life. There's financial, effectively managing your economic situation, health. And for me, that's both physically and mentally, to have the energy and the mental wherewithal to be able to do what you want. And then community, a sense of engagement with where you live, which I think of community, and I'd love to hear, Tina, how do you view that different than, like, I think they overlap some, but community is like the bigger group that you belong to than just your immediate, I call it your inner circle of more family and friends. But having a sense of engagement with beyond just your immediate inner circle, too.

    [09:41] Christina Donovan: Yeah, I mean, I think you talk about this later in your class, but this idea that you're part of something larger than yourself, I think is to me, what community is and sort of the bonds that you have with that community, they are different than your social circle of friends. I mean, there's definitely a social aspect to community, but it's this idea that you are part of a larger entity. And I think that you get different things from your community than you do from a social circle.

    [10:25] Tara Bansal: And even hearing you talk about that, your community can be your town, it can be a cause or a group of people that you identify with. It could be your country. It could be, I guess, your community and your church. Yeah. And to me, that links to contribution in general. I don't know if that has to be, but I naturally kind of think of those going together.

    [10:57] Christina Donovan: Yeah, I do think out of those five, there's a lot of overlap and interaction between them and, yeah, maybe you've broken it down into five, but maybe for some people they're. I don't want to say less, but, yeah.

    [11:18] Tara Bansal: Lumped together or they come. Yeah, they're.

    [11:20] Christina Donovan: So there's some overlap. Yeah. I mean, do you feel like of these, one is more important than the other?

    [11:29] Tara Bansal: No, I think what stands out to me, the one that stands out as the least important is financial. And just before we were talking, I was listening to Carl Richards, his 50 fires podcast, and it was all about if you have kind of these other things, like if you have strong relationships or you have a strong sense of community that you're part of and people help each other. The guest talked about he didn't worry about taking financial risks because he felt a safety that his family and community would help him and he knew he wouldn't be homeless. And so it's interesting to me of just thinking if you have these other things, the finances are the least important because hopefully they will get taken care of in different ways. And I'm not advocating being reckless, but it's almost like in order a priority. I think financial stands out to me as the least important.

    [12:47] Christina Donovan: And it's interesting.

    [12:49] Tara Bansal: Yeah. I mean, health, I feel like you have to be healthy in order to engage with anything. I don't know. I can't think of the quote right now, but a healthy person has a million wants and a sick person has one want.

    [13:06] Christina Donovan: It's funny because all of these, there's a certain amount of things in each of these categories or elements that you can't control.

    [13:17] Tara Bansal: Which is true, and that's part of life. I think we have to accept that, that we know there are going to be curveballs.

    [13:27] Christina Donovan: But I guess to your point, if things that you can't control for or that go wrong, hopefully in some of the other areas help to make up for either the issues or the problems or the like. It is all interconnected, that the other.

    [13:44] Tara Bansal: Things hopefully will step in to help make it better or make it more manageable. I'm reading this book called Wonder Drug. It's our book club book, and I'm pulling in all these things, but I feel like right now in my life, everything is kind of overlapping and creating this message that seems screaming at me. But wonder drug is about how being of service to others helps you health wise, career wise, community wise. Just reading this list from that book, they talk about, yeah, if you are depressed, one of the things you can control and do is to try to help other people, and that can make a difference in how you feel. So it's just interesting that I do think being of service relates to all of these. And this book, Wonder Drug, talks about what a difference that can make for your happiness, for your health, for your even career success if it is genuine and authentic.

    [14:58] Christina Donovan: What do you think some of the most common retirement challenges are?

    [15:04] Tara Bansal: I think the most common is probably around identity, and that's really tough your whole life. And I think doctors are to me, the biggest ones with this. They've been a doctor their whole life and they identify as a doctor to then no longer be practicing. And it's almost like, then who am I? Because that has changed if you're not doing it. So identity is a big one and that can be challenging. The other to me is just around your time work in the class I talk about. This provides a structure that many people need. And I think so many people think when they have all that freedom, I don't know, everything's going to be great. And yet the norm is people struggle because they don't know how to use their time or what to do with their time. And then suddenly, I mean, the statistic, I can't think of it right now, but the amount of television that most retirees watch, it blows my mind. Wow.

    [16:30] Christina Donovan: I didn't expect you to say that.

    [16:32] Tara Bansal: Yeah, they're not doing anything. And I think I mentioned this on our episode with Kelly, but I feel like around two years, clients who retire come in and they're like, I'm bored. I'm looking. I need to do something besides just travel and golf and read. And I thought that would be enough, but they're really struggling with what to do. So finding things to use your time and feeling useful, I think is the other major.

    [17:13] Christina Donovan: Yeah. When you talked about that two years, I think of my husband who, he talks about retirement, and I think in his mind that is what he's like, oh, I get to play golf every day and I can go out every night and I don't know, I have a feeling that that will happen. I totally see him in that statistic. Like, that will be great for a.

    [17:41] Tara Bansal: Year, a certain time period. Yeah.

    [17:43] Christina Donovan: And then I think he's going to.

    [17:45] Tara Bansal: Realize, yeah.

    [17:50] Christina Donovan: It'Ll initially start and then it will wear off. Kind of the, I think some people.

    [17:57] Tara Bansal: If they are burned out or like.

    [17:59] Christina Donovan: They need, that's what I was going to say.

    [18:02] Tara Bansal: So I don't want anyone to feel judged because I think some people need that time and space to really.

    [18:16] Christina Donovan: That'S not going to happen in a week. I think if you've had a highly stressful job for 25, 30 years. Yeah. It takes some time to come down from that. Yeah. I mean, there were a lot of scary statistics that both you and Kelly talked about and they are super surprising. I loved the four Ds and B of retirement. I don't know, do you want to mention them?

    [18:49] Tara Bansal: This is from the book new retirementality, I think it's called, we'll put it by Mitch Anthony and I guess it's considered common. They call it the four Ds and the B of retirement. Death, divorce, disability, drunkenness and boredom. And how common those all appear and happen soon, I would say within five years of retiring. I mean, the statistics were your chance of passing away doubles after you retirement versus if you continue to work and for whatever reason, and even how many couples get divorced. I can say that, right? Like suddenly it's hard having both people home and they're not used to that and they, you know, divorce is another. All of those to me sound terrible, right? Like this retirement is put out there as supposed to be this great thing, and yet the statistics show it's really hard. The 141 percent of retirees report that retirement was a difficult adjustment and only 23% felt becoming a parent was a difficult adjustment. I know that makes me laugh because.

    [20:25] Christina Donovan: I don't know, becoming a parent was like the hardest thing I ever did in my life.

    [20:31] Tara Bansal: This is double that number. I think it's important for people to be aware of that. It is hard. It's so drastically different. And to give yourself some grace of, one, trying to prepare for it by two, realizing it's not going to be a walk in the park.

    [20:57] Christina Donovan: Yeah. Because I know, and again, this is speaking from my husband, because in his mind, I know he's like, oh, when I retire, I'm going to have time to exercise, I'm going to eat better, I'm going to become so much healthier because I think he feels like the stress and the demands of his job definitely impact his ability to do that, to control his health. Yeah, but I mean, the statistics show, like, he'd be better off work.

    [21:26] Tara Bansal: Right.

    [21:27] Christina Donovan: And I'm sure that's not for every person, but it is eye opening that these things that you envision in your retirement may not be as easy as you think.

    [21:43] Tara Bansal: Not to be a downer, but how many clients look forward to their retirement and then being on the other side of the table as a financial planner within a year or two? How common it is that someone is diagnosed with cancer or get sick or die and it just really feels like so unfair.

    [22:09] Christina Donovan: You finally get to what you've worked.

    [22:12] Tara Bansal: So hard for and to know that that isn't that unusual, I hope will motivate people to plan a little more.

    [22:26] Christina Donovan: I know. I think this is also from the new retirement by Mitch Anthony. The go go, slow go and no go.

    [22:37] Tara Bansal: So they talk about the three phases of retirement. And the go go phase is this is like immediately after when you finally can do the things you want to do but couldn't because you were too busy and didn't have the time. And a lot of people, I think they think of the go go phase is going to last forever. But as a planner, there's also the slow go phase, which is marked where you're not traveling as much, you actually don't want to travel as much. You're happy. Just like being in your home and doing some of the quieter things with the people you love and enjoying that. I don't think it's that you hopefully aren't happy in that phase. And then the no go phase, which is a time when you're not healthy and able to do the things that you want to do. And often in a medical or nursing care facility that is very different. And each of those phases can last different lengths of time. But usually I feel like most people experience all three unless they have a sudden death.

    [23:58] Christina Donovan: Do you feel like when you're thinking about your retirement, when you're in maybe your late 40s or you're in your 50s? Is it important to think about each of those three phases, or should you just really concentrate on your first go go phase because the others will sort of evolve?

    [24:19] Tara Bansal: I would focus on the first initial phase, and I've learned almost like, you can have really long term goals, but almost. It's hard to predict more than five years ahead because so much can change. So I, as a planner, like to think just five years ahead. And that's not to say if you do think long, long term. I view it more as like, what are the values or what are the most important things that you want so that whatever the circumstances change, that you come back to that and know to focus on that. Like if it's family or if it's adventure or a cause or whatever that going to. There's so many things you can't control. But if you know what's most important to you and keep that front and center, hopefully it'll just morph in how it shows up in your life or how you get to live those values. I don't know if that makes sense. Yeah.

    [25:37] Christina Donovan: When I think of our parents retirement, I feel like they have very much followed, like, the go go, slogo, no go phase.

    [25:47] Tara Bansal: And I feel like dad was a really great example of someone who has done retirement well. I mean, part of me is, like, I was even thinking, maybe we have dad on to talk because we're having all the siblings, but just to hear him. But when he left his work, and I think he kept working a little longer in different ways, that seemed unexpected. He then did consulting for a while, and so that was kind of like a really good transition of, like, instead of 100 to zero, he went from, like 100 down to 50 with more of the freedom and flexibility, but yet still being engaged and getting to use his strengths. And he also did volunteering. I mean, he did a lot of that, too. And now, yeah, I feel like they did a nice job through these phases. I feel like, for being, they're in their low 80s, like, still active and still engaged in doing things, which is impressive. I don't think most people would guess they're the age that they are.

    [27:08] Christina Donovan: No, I agree. And I guess you sort of answered, like, my next question, but what are some of the observations you've made and lessons you've learned from watching people retire? Well, I mean, the one that stands.

    [27:28] Tara Bansal: Out to me, and this kind of happened, even with our parents, was like, people build a retirement home somewhere, and then when the time comes, they almost plan it too far out. But then, for whatever reason, mom and dad bought and built this beautiful house in Alita, and then they ended up leaving Atlanta. So it was not as convenient as they originally thought it was going to be. They were now living up in Delaware, and it was a flight or a super long drive instead of the short drive they imagined. And that is a lesson I see, like, people buy and plan to live down in Florida, and then when they're there full time, they don't really enjoy it as much as they had expected, or they're not near their family or able to be with their family in the way they want. And so that, to me, is part of the five years of, like, don't plan too far ahead because things can change of not being near the grandkids that they are excited to spend time with or not near their friends that they've had for decades that are no longer close to them.

    [28:54] Christina Donovan: My kids, of course, they have opinions about everything. And on our retirement, they're always like, you guys should retire to Maine. Because my family likes to vacation in Maine. But we say all the time, we don't have any friends in Maine. We're going to move there and just sit there and look at each other. And I know you can make new friends, and I don't mean to say you shouldn't move to a new place, but for us, part of the appeal of retirement is spending more time with the people that we can't see as much of, whether it's family or friends. And I think that's definitely.

    [29:34] Tara Bansal: Important to.

    [29:35] Christina Donovan: Us, that where we end up, either we're not far or we have people there already.

    [29:47] Tara Bansal: And even that, I think it is thinking of what's most important to you. And maybe if you guys rented a place for a month for several years, you would start building a network of people up there that would change your mind or do. And that's part of thinking of what you want. Are there different ways that you can get what you want? And that's part of the exploration, right. It's not just you have to buy a house or rent a house and live there. Maybe there's other options or other ways you could do it.

    [30:28] Christina Donovan: Yeah, but I think it's that idea that you can lay out a path for retirement. And you have to, like we said, you have to start thinking and you have to start somewhere. But you really do need to be open to the idea that these last years, you do want to get them right. And if things aren't sitting right or don't feel right, feel right. I mean, make the change. Don't feel like you have to stay or be stopped. I don't know if you want to talk about some of the exercises.

    [31:06] Tara Bansal: Yeah. So the assignment for the first class was choose a notebook and actually kind of even name it. Like, this is your project to start dreaming and start thinking about what you want and be on the lookout for pictures, descriptions, and setting aside some time to think of what you want this next phase to be. And to Tina's point, right, it's hard, and I encourage how you want it to feel.

    [31:48] Christina Donovan: Right.

    [31:49] Tara Bansal: Like even that, get down to the emotional aspect of peaceful, connected, useful, right. And think of how you want to feel, the people you want to be with and activities you would like to be doing. And part of that is just like, let yourself dream and even do a list of things you may want to try. Like, Kelly was such a great example of that, of like, oh, maybe I'll try learning the ukulele. Just try different things to see in small doses that what you enjoy and what you don't. Now that you are moving towards more time and freedom, what do you want to be part of that and so I just encourage, just set aside 15 minutes and dream.

    [32:56] Christina Donovan: Right.

    [32:56] Tara Bansal: And write down it can be the environment. Like, are you on the water? Are you hiking in the woods? And try not to limit yourself. This goes to, like, maybe you can accomplish things in different ways, but what would you like to be doing and who do you want to be with? And then from there, the next exercise is to try to plan out your ideal week. So do a grid, like, for each day, Sunday through Saturday, morning, afternoon and night. I mean, it's 168 hours. Go ahead, Tina.

    [33:41] Christina Donovan: Well, I was going to say, terry has. We'll post these. Yeah, we'll post these in the show notes. Like, if you can't visualize what she's saying, and I don't mean to say you're not doing a good job describing it, but she does have actual.

    [33:59] Tara Bansal: Document.

    [33:59] Christina Donovan: For people to download that you can look at. So sorry about that.

    [34:04] Tara Bansal: No, that's great. And this goes to what we were saying earlier. Some people do golf all day, many days a week, but I don't know that many people who golf morning and afternoon, five or six days a week. In retirement, it eventually changes. So to look at all those windows and think of what would you like to be doing, try to plan out and think of an ideal day is one thing, but to then spread it out over the seven days and think of that and think it through, like, is it gardening? How much time gardening? Is it taking classes? And also not to forget who are the people you want to see? What are the other parts that you want to be doing? So those are the two, I feel like, just kind of kick off exercises to get yourself dreaming and thinking. There's no, how are you going to do this at this point? It's really trying to get in touch with yourself and what you would love if there were no limits, no parameters at all. Tina, what's your reaction when you hear those exercises? Do they sound fun or they sound hard?

    [35:36] Christina Donovan: No. I could see the ideal week in retirement and how she has it gridded and the 168 hours per week. And also, like, envisioning. She has keywords like travel, explore, play, write, relax, teach, go back to school. I thought they were great, and I think that they are really helpful.

    [36:02] Tara Bansal: In.

    [36:02] Christina Donovan: Just kind of starting the process. Yeah, I think, too, the beauty of.

    [36:08] Tara Bansal: This is you can't make a mistake.

    [36:14] Christina Donovan: There's no right or wrong. And just because you start down one path doesn't mean that you have to end up there. It's just, again, starting the process to figure out the road and it may.

    [36:29] Tara Bansal: The path. Yeah. And it may change. And I think it's important to say and recognize it will change. Right. For various reasons. Right. There's a normal, like the three phases that is going to happen, hopefully. Right. And to give yourself that, I don't know, it will change and almost like, set out with the expectation of trying to be flexible and just noticing what you like and what you dislike, and you will have more freedom and flexibility to change it. Hopefully.

    [37:14] Christina Donovan: There could be things that you're not even aware of that you.

    [37:19] Tara Bansal: Maybe you take a class in sculpture.

    [37:23] Christina Donovan: Yeah. Maybe somebody takes you to a lecture that then you go to a class and it's something that you've had no experience with, but all of a sudden that becomes a primary focus of x number of hours of yours each week or each month. And I think that's the thing. The unknown is just as exciting as what you may plan. This idea that you want to have things that you're excited about, and you want to be excited about retirement or time to have the choices to do what you want. But at the same time, hopefully, there's space that you'll discover things that you didn't even know that you wanted to do.

    [38:09] Tara Bansal: And the last exercise is one that I love and I feel like everyone should do. It's from designing your life, which is a book I love, and it has you go through. We talked about this on Nimitz podcast, and it relates also to those areas of well being. But the four areas are love, play, work, or contribution, and health. And what number would you give yourself in each of those areas on a scale of one to ten? And then what area? Usually there's one that's kind of much lower than the others. But what area would you like to focus on and like to make better? And then to think of one or two things you can try to help with making that area of your life better. And here I encourage baby steps or a turtle step of what may or may not make a difference, but to even just make the effort to try something and see what happens. I love that. Just like it's kind of your life speedometer or dashboard of in those areas. Where are you and where would you like to see a change? And what are some little actions you can take to hopefully make things better, just to have that as a check in. I feel like occasionally is always a good thing. And those, the love is relationships and social. The play is also social and fun and contribution and then your health. So each of those, I think, are kind of the four pillars of a good, well lived life, but also very.

    [40:11] Christina Donovan: Similar to what we talk, the essential elements of retirement. You kind of keep hearing and seeing the same things, and there's a reason for that. These are the things that will help you make your life what you want it to be.

    [40:28] Tara Bansal: The one other thing I want to mention is the four S's of work. So these are what work provides for most of us. And not to underestimate this goes to what we're talking about. But wherever you work, generally, you have social interactions or people that you talk to. And that's the biggest driver of all of our happiness. It provides a structure for your time. Right? Like every day, you know, you have certain things you have to do and get to. It's also mental stimulation. You learn, you discover you're feeling valued and appreciated. And all of those are so important. Going to community. But story of being part of something that's just bigger than yourself, that you are making a contribution. You're part of a team, you're working towards a goal. And yeah, those are the four S's that most work provides for us. And this is where when you retire, then all of that structure disappears. Disappears. And so how to find ways or things that will provide that for you in the way that's best for you, right? This is where everybody's different. I like more structure than many other people, but how to create that for myself in a way that feels good. I hope this is helpful. We, as always, would love feedback and comments. Anything else? Teen?

    [42:21] Christina Donovan: No, but there's quite a bit of information that will be in the show notes, all the books that we mentioned or that Tari mentioned, as well as the exercises that she described. And I would like to add, I love in her class, she talks about homework, but she describes it as home play, which I thought I'd never heard before. I thought that was so adorable. And I don't know a fun way.

    [42:54] Tara Bansal: To look at it.

    [42:55] Christina Donovan: I don't know where you found that or heard that, if that's your own.

    [42:58] Tara Bansal: Yeah, no, I think I just came up with that. But maybe I heard it from someone. But I agree, you want this to be fun. And so how to make it fun is part of this, but just to get started. And I think it's a reaction to work, right? Like, I didn't want it to feel like work, so I called it home play to do it on your own, outside of class. For show notes and other information about our podcast, please go to our website, messymidelescence.com. If you enjoyed listening, please share with others and come back for more.

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13. Middlescence Misery