33. Continuously Seeking with Alexa Dare
“We have been settled in ways that are wonderful for professional lives and building community, but also, as I head toward 50, I’m feeling all sorts of feelings about wanting to find ways to keep moving in life.”
There are numerous definitions of the word “seeker”. The one that resonated with us most describes a seeker as “…characterized by a persistent and often intense curiosity, a desire to understand and explore and a willingness to question and learn”.
In today’s episode we interview our sister-in-law, Dr. Alexa (Alex) Dare, Ph.D. (Alex is married to our brother, Patrick, the 6th of the 7 siblings in the Conti family). In the early minutes of our interview, Alex describes herself as a seeker and, as the interview unfolds, we learn exactly why. In describing her childhood, her professional life, her love of travel and the outdoors we see the true embodiment of that definition.
And while for some people these qualities might diminish with age, as Alex approaches her 50th birthday, her desire to learn new things, to strive for a deeper understanding of the world and to embrace new challenges is as strong as ever. But Alex’s middlescence journey is not without its own uncertainties and questioning struggles.
We hope you will join us as we discuss these challenges with Alex along with the following:
Her childhood in Canada and the many places she has lived and traveled since then;
Her “need” for time outdoors and her love of nature;
The appeal of “doing nothing” and the difficulties of trying to plan such a thing;
The plans for her next two big adventures;
Her middlescence professional struggles;
The generational differences around the definition of and questions about middle age;
How to measure and define happiness and success;
Her superpower of “adaptability”;
What she is most proud of;
Reframing the idea of retirement around work and time commitments; “working less and with more flexibility"
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[00:24] Tara Bansal: Hi, this is Tara Conti Bansal and I want to welcome you to season two of our podcast, Messy Middlescence. My sister Christina Conti Donovan and I are in the thick of midlife and trying to help ourselves and others to learn about and hopefully thrive in this unique phase of life.
[00:44] Like adolescence, mid is a time of tremendous change touching almost every aspects of our lives. There are the physical and hormonal changes, but also many of the rhythms, relationships and frameworks that have dominated our lives for decades.
[01:01] All start to shift in various ways.
[01:05] Tina and I are figuring this out as we go, and we hope you will join us as we dive into and discuss topics and ideas that will help all of us grow and understand this special midlife phase and how to live it better, more meaningfully and joyfully, one day at a time.
[01:24] Christina Donovan: Hello.
[01:25] Alexa Dare: Hello.
[01:25] Christina Donovan: This is Tara Conti Bansal and I am here with Christina Conti Donovan. And we have Alexa Dare, who is our sister in law. She is married to our brother Pat, who is the sixth of the seven kids in the Conti household and we just love her.
[01:49] I'm super excited to talk to Alex. We call her Alex. She has a PhD and teaches at the University of Portland. I will let you, Alex, talk more about your specialty or anything else like that.
[02:06] We just love hanging out with you and always wish we could get more. But she was gracious enough to join us on Messy Middlescence. Is it okay if I say that you have a big birthday coming up and giving your age?
[02:21] So Alex turns 50 later this month in March, and,
[02:28] you know, she's behind Tina and I, but that fits right in with the Messy Middlescence time frame of all of us.
[02:37] And Alex, we always start with tell us your story or, you know, all the way back to the beginning.
[02:44] Alexa Dare: The beginning.
[02:46] Okay. Well, thank you. I'm super excited to be here with you too. And yeah, it's both. We don't get to see each other nearly enough and maybe that ties into my story.
[02:59] I was born and raised in Canada. I'm the oldest of four kids.
[03:06] And from a pretty early age I just wanted to get out. And I thought at the time that it was like I wanted to, you know, believe that I was, you know, needing to, I don't know, stretch my wings or whatever the saying is, but I think it's.
[03:22] It becomes clearer to me as I had spent 50 years on Earth, that I am just kind of a seeker and so have wanted to move and travel and try new things.
[03:37] And so I left home and went to College in Edmonton, Alberta, which likely you've never been to. Have either of you been to Edmonton? No.
[03:46] Christina Donovan: And it's far from where you grew up, right? Yeah.
[03:50] Alexa Dare: That was probably. It's, you know, main reason why I went there was it felt really far and adventurous. But it's. It's really. It's quite far north and cold, and it was a wonderful place to be for four years.
[04:05] And then I moved further north to Alaska, which is where I met Patrick.
[04:10] And then we have spent a lot of years traveling around trying to get both of our sort of professional and personal lives settled together. And we spent time living together and apart in Colorado, Montana, Michigan, Washington, back to Montana,
[04:30] California,
[04:31] and now Portland. And we've been in Portland for longer than certainly Pat had lived anywhere else. I think we're coming up on our 12th year in Portland. So we have.
[04:45] We have been settled in ways that are wonderful for professional lives and building community, but also, like, as I head toward 50, I'm feeling all sorts of feelings about wanting to find ways to keep moving in life.
[05:03] And that's partially about moving around, but also probably just moving.
[05:11] Yeah. So that's. That's the geographical story.
[05:15] And I don't know. What else. What else?
[05:17] Christina Donovan: Where did you grow up? I don't think you.
[05:19] Alexa Dare: Oh, yeah, I didn't say. I just said that I wanted to leave where I grew up. I grew up in Kitchener,
[05:24] Ontario, which is about an hour outside of Toronto. They have a good Ontario Hockey League team that I know at least some of you are familiar with.
[05:38] Yes.
[05:40] Christina Donovan: What goes with the hockey themed family? All of us are.
[05:44] Alexa Dare: Y'all love hockey way more than I do, which is, you know, supposed to be my birthright as a Canadian.
[05:49] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[05:49] Christina Donovan: As a Canadian.
[05:51] Alexa Dare: Yeah.
[05:53] Christina Donovan: What. What did you love to do when you were little? Like, pre college.
[05:59] Alexa Dare: I loved to ski is a big thing and be outside. So I did lots of canoe trips and canoeing in the summer. And those are some of the fondest memories I have of growing up is being at camp in the summertime and.
[06:21] Yeah. Being outside in the winter, in the summer, at any time.
[06:27] Christina Donovan: That's what I remember. I visited you and Pat in Montana and just you guys are big hikers and mountain bikers and skiers. Just. I know you love being outside. Did you do that with your family or was that more at camps?
[06:46] Alexa Dare: Yep, skiing definitely was a family activity, and we all grew up skiing together. My mom didn't ski. I think she briefly, you know, tried skiing and then decided it wasn't for her.
[06:59] But we still did like family trips and things around. Skiing and the camping thing was more.
[07:06] More just a summer camp.
[07:09] We didn't do that as much growing up, but my parents had and have a cottage on a lake that is, you know, a fairly common thing in Ontario. Um, and it's, it's absolutely magical up there.
[07:20] Right. It's a cabin, has a lake that you could just walk down and swim and boat in. And so we spent summers up there as well.
[07:29] Christina Donovan: I don't know that many Canadians, but it seems like most Canadians either go to a place on the lake or have a place on the lake. There are lakes, right?
[07:38] Alexa Dare: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And definitely like in Ontario, out west, it feels different. It's not the same. But yeah, where I grew up, there's exactly. There's like a lake for every person.
[07:49] So if you're drive to some weird in the middle of nowhere, you can get a place there.
[07:54] Christina Donovan: What are your degrees in? Like, is your undergraduate degree the same as your doctorate?
[08:00] Alexa Dare: No, my undergrad degree is in Native American studies. Well, I suppose it would be Native Canadian studies and which is sort of an interdisciplinary degree that was like a political science, history, anthropology kind of degree that was really interested in Native American issues, Canadian issues, indigenous issues,
[08:26] and then my master's and my communication, or My Master's and PhD degrees are both in communication,
[08:34] which,
[08:35] like, wasn't a field when I went to college in Canada. It's a field that started. Started in the US in some ways started in the US and is quite common in the US And I didn't know it as an undergrad, but found it when I went to Alaska.
[08:53] They were hiring TAs to teach in the communication program. And so it seemed like a financially smart field to get a degree in, so I sort of fell into it there.
[09:07] And yeah, so communication is my, my degree and right now my focus is on environmental. Communication is sort of the overarching theme, so thinking about things like communicating scientific findings and climate change issues.
[09:26] But more and more I'm also just thinking about media and how media and social media and AI and new technologies just, you know, are shaking everything up and impacting all sorts of elements of our lives.
[09:42] Christina Donovan: Do you teach primarily undergrad or you have, do you have graduate students that you also work with?
[09:50] Alexa Dare: No, I'm at an undergrad school. We actually did have a grad program briefly, but no, I just teach undergrads. Right now we just have undergrads.
[09:58] Christina Donovan: How many classes do you teach?
[10:01] Alexa Dare: Three classes a semester?
[10:03] Christina Donovan: Yeah, that's. That's a lot.
[10:05] Christina Donovan: Can you Clear up. I hear so many different things in our family. How many languages do you actually speak besides English? Because I didn't know that. Like, 15 languages.
[10:15] Alexa Dare: I basically just speak American English now because it's a long. But I did grow up going to a French school, and so I have sort of French ready to activate within me, but I never speak it.
[10:29] My vocabulary is terrible. So, yeah, no, I don't speak it well.
[10:33] Christina Donovan: And when you. I thought when you went down to South America that you spoke Spanish. Here you are being very humble, so.
[10:42] Christina Donovan: I also heard you speak Mandarin. It goes to show you in a large family how rumors are just unbelievable.
[10:50] Alexa Dare: These are the best kind of rumors. I love just attached to me. No, I don't speak those languages, unfortunately. And I did go to Nicaragua to learn Spanish with Patrick and I.
[11:04] We had been there two days, and I broke my ankle and.
[11:07] Christina Donovan: And then you had to get flight.
[11:08] Alexa Dare: Back to Canada, so I never learned Spanish. Pat learned Spanish.
[11:12] Tara Bansal: Does he speak Spanish?
[11:14] Christina Donovan: We don't even know.
[11:15] Alexa Dare: I mean, I think he could get. He could get around in Spanish.
[11:21] Christina Donovan: He speaks Spanish. The way you speak French, sort of like it's in there and it's.
[11:25] Alexa Dare: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
[11:27] Christina Donovan: What. What's important to you now? Like, turning 50 and thinking about this next phase, and maybe you don't even view it as a phase, but what's coming up for you?
[11:39] Alexa Dare: Oh, yeah, no, it feels.50, feels huge to me. I don't know how it felt to both of you, but it just feels like it's been preoccupying my thinking for at least a year.
[11:49] Right. Like, what does this mean?
[11:51] So what's important now? Gosh, I don't know. I mean, I honestly, I don't know. Things feel very destabilized at the moment, and that's both, like, internal, but also obviously external.
[12:06] And so. So I often feel like I don't. I don't know what's important. You know, we're just, like, trying to keep our head above water and figure out how to, you know, make it through to the end of the week.
[12:17] And,
[12:18] like, the one thing that feels. Feels like I can hold onto as being important at the moment is spending time outside. And I know that sounds like so little and not a thing, but it does.
[12:33] It does feel like in lots of ways, if I'm finding myself, like, at a.
[12:39] A decision point, and I'm like, what are we gonna do? Like, what's next year gonna look like? For me, it's helpful to remember that anything that lets me singularly go outside and like, breathe and hear the sounds of nature are like, healthy for me.
[13:00] And then kind of broadly for our family, we can do things collectively outside. Especially as Franny gets older and we get pulled in more directions with activities and things like.
[13:10] Yeah, just remembering that peace is one of the things that feels important right now.
[13:18] Christina Donovan: How do you make that happen?
[13:22] Alexa Dare: Well,
[13:25] I think we end up doing it both in small ways and big ways. So, you know, I'm getting a little late in planning summer activities, but, you know, thinking about summer activities, we always bake in a trip that we do together that lets us go camping and other kinds of outdoor activities,
[13:44] depending on where we're going. And I think in small ways, it's just like remembering that,
[13:52] like so much of this life right now is a kind of divide and conquer thing with, you know, taking care of house things and kid things and dog things. And so we're often doing like, okay, you walk the dog, I'll take her to ballet.
[14:06] We'll get you call the contractor, I'll do this. And I think sometimes just like keeping us all on the same page around, like walking the dog or going out for a hike, that feels like an important thing to remember.
[14:19] Cause weeks can go by with us just kind of doing the like. Yeah. Strategizing how to take care of tasks and not thinking more holistically about doing things together. So that, um, is part of how we do it.
[14:32] Christina Donovan: How about you share about Franny and your dog?
[14:38] Alexa Dare: Yep. Okay. So franny is turning 10 this year, so she has a big birthday as well as you. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
[14:47] And she is doing a ton of activities which are like, wonderful. And also they're coming to a kind of inflection point. I think that feels early to me, looking back at my own life.
[15:03] But like, things get intensive really fast and so she's going to have to make some choices within the next year or two about what she wants to really be doing.
[15:13] But at the moment, she's a very active, very over scheduled kid in Portland.
[15:20] She does dance and skiing and gymnastics and we try to squeeze in swimming, ukulele and all the things.
[15:30] Christina Donovan: And she's an avid reader.
[15:32] Alexa Dare: And she's an avid reader. She loves to read and just got a pair of roller skates, so she's eating a lot.
[15:43] And our dog Addie is a year and a half now.
[15:48] And she also loves hiking and going outside, which is a relief. She comes skiing with us and put a coat on her and she stays in the car while we ski and then she runs around in the snow with the dogs after.
[16:00] So she joins in the family outdoor activities too.
[16:04] Christina Donovan: That's great.
[16:05] Christina Donovan: I mean, given as we all are caught up in day to day tasks. If you had more time, what would you do or what would you want to do?
[16:16] Alexa Dare: Well,
[16:18] I think. Oh, I don't know. I mean, there's so much like part of me I just was realizing that sometimes what I would do if I had more time would be nothing.
[16:36] Just like, just read.
[16:38] Christina Donovan: Spoken like a true working mother.
[16:41] Alexa Dare: Right. But then that feels like especially the coming up on 50 and like what am I doing with my life and who am I that, you know, that just doesn't feel as satisfying to plan out.
[16:52] I do think I take time to do nothing. It does come. But that like planning to do nothing is not something that I do.
[17:02] Pat and I actually just bought like this new ski setup and we're going to take up backcountry skiing, which is sort of more time intensive. It's not something we could do with Franny right away.
[17:17] So that feels like something I'm going to try to figure out time to do and not exactly sure how to do it, but that's. That's on the horizon as a kind of new activity to do that.
[17:30] Yeah. Will need its own set time to accomplish.
[17:34] Christina Donovan: I know you love to travel, is that correct?
[17:38] Alexa Dare: Yes.
[17:39] Christina Donovan: Yeah, I'm. Now I'm afraid, like how much what I think is true.
[17:45] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[17:47] Christina Donovan: Would you like to travel more?
[17:50] Alexa Dare: Yeah, definitely. We're going on a trip to Thailand in two weeks, so that's really exciting.
[17:55] Christina Donovan: And how long are you going to be there?
[17:58] Alexa Dare: Just 10 days.
[17:59] Christina Donovan: So that's pretty long.
[18:00] Alexa Dare: It's great. No, it's great.
[18:01] Christina Donovan: But is Franny going with you or is it just you and Patrick?
[18:04] Alexa Dare: Yep, Franny's going with us.
[18:06] Christina Donovan: So is she excited?
[18:08] Alexa Dare: She is excited, yeah.
[18:10] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[18:10] Alexa Dare: A little nervous, uncertain. Yeah, yeah. It's going to be like.
[18:16] But that's exciting.
[18:18] And yes, travel feels like something that I like to do and we like to do, but I think I have a slightly greater love of international travel than Pat does.
[18:36] And so we do that. But we also really like to travel around locally. And the nice thing about traveling locally is that we can bring our dog.
[18:45] Just trying to set up our dog sitting for when we're away. And it's as much as I yearn to do like longer than 10 days, it's also a lot to leave a family member behind to can't pound us on land, so.
[18:58] But yes. So we're going to Thailand. That's exciting and hopefully a few more trips on the horizon.
[19:05] Christina Donovan: Where are some places you would like to go that you haven't been or are there places you want to go back to? Yeah.
[19:13] Alexa Dare: Oh yeah, all of that. I'm. I'm really curious about Colombia and so that's up there. We almost went to Columbia for this trip. So this trip happens, the trip to Thailand happens on my.
[19:27] Over my birthday and so it's sort of a spring break slash 50th birthday trip. And yeah, Columbia. I've heard really good things. I have a colleague who does research in Colombia and has spent a lot of time there who,
[19:38] you know, has told me a lot about the communities there. So in South America generally. We haven't spent much time in South America, so I'd love to go to South America.
[19:51] We had a really wonderful trip to Portugal, a very short trip to Portugal. Have either of you been there?
[19:57] Christina Donovan: I've been to Portugal.
[19:58] Alexa Dare: Oh yeah, that's right. But you didn't love it, did you?
[20:01] Christina Donovan: I loved it. I didn't love it as much as like Barcelona and Paris. So but.
[20:08] Alexa Dare: And I have not been to Spain, but Portugal was like a surprise gem. I have a cousin in Norway who since she moved there I've been intended to go and visit her and we haven't done that.
[20:20] I could just keep. Oh, Japan too. We really want to go to Japan.
[20:24] Christina Donovan: Have you been to Thailand or you guys went to Vietnam? I'm trying to remember where.
[20:29] Alexa Dare: So I, I lived in Vietnam and went to Thailand, you know, a few times when I lived in Vietnam. Then Pat worked in Cambodia and I went out to visit him and went to Thailand then with Cindy and I think that's it.
[20:47] And Pat and I have been to Thailand at another point. So we've been a few times. Although we're going places that we've not been before in Thailand. So it'll be exciting.
[20:56] Christina Donovan: Yeah. You're a world traveler compared to just hearing all the places.
[21:02] Christina Donovan: Do you and Pat talk about retirement? Is that something you think about at this point or is it too far away for you?
[21:09] Alexa Dare: No, no, we do. I think for us we often think about.
[21:14] I guess it would be semi retirement. So maybe what different kind of time commit work time commitments could look like?
[21:26] And that's a kind of shorter term imagination.
[21:30] But it's at this point.
[21:35] Yeah, we don't have. We haven't talked a lot about it in part because yeah, it is further away but also, yeah, things feel a little uncertain right at the moment and have I suppose since COVID I was just reading an article this morning about kind of the legacies of COVID in all areas of our lives.
[21:53] And you know, we. I know that. But also just sort of reading the document,
[21:59] how this has affected like how we think about school. School and politics and health and all those things. Like, I think that has certainly infused our talk about work for the past five years.
[22:12] Right. Like how we imagine what our work is now and what our work is going to be has always felt a little like. No, no. Like higher education is changing dramatically.
[22:20] Schools are going out of business all the time. Like,
[22:24] so I consider what retirement would look like and then I also consider what like losing my job would look like if the school goes out of business. So.
[22:32] Yeah, so I guess that's not like, I don't really have a clear answer. Like, we are in a moment where certainly retirement is not on the immediate horizon, but kind of like changing work lives is something that we're like acutely aware of and not having any clear plans about.
[22:51] Christina Donovan: Do you get a sabbatical as. As.
[22:55] Alexa Dare: Yep, I had a sabbatical in.
[22:59] Christina Donovan: Oh, I think I remember now. Yeah.
[23:02] Alexa Dare: Yeah. Which was sort of COVID y so it wasn't like a. The kind of. I mean, I don't think I would be able to do that kind of like stereotypical sabbatical anyway where like our whole family moves to Paris or something.
[23:14] Although.
[23:18] Christina Donovan: Sounds nice. Yeah. Are there possibilities for like flexibility or working less where you are?
[23:26] Alexa Dare: Yeah, sort of.
[23:28] Christina Donovan: I didn't know if you can like have a lower class load or. I just didn't know.
[23:36] Alexa Dare: No, that's right. So no, like within my current sort of job category and school there aren't you sort of are just on your track.
[23:46] Like, I can do the work or not do the work,
[23:51] but there's a lot of like part time teaching work that I think would probably fit the bill of. I'm changing the amount of work I do. So it would probably be about like just quitting at the full time work and then trying to.
[24:08] Christina Donovan: And doing part time. What do you like about your job?
[24:13] Alexa Dare: I love that I'm always reading and trying new things.
[24:20] My field and my department in particular. I get to sort of teach whatever I want to teach. And for me that expresses itself as always designing new courses that are kind of like not a thing that I actually know that much about.
[24:35] But then I learn about it, learn into.
[24:38] And I just love that. I mean, it's a such a treat to be able to have that kind of autonomy and just to be Able to be thinking through. Like, I'm.
[24:51] I'm teaching a new class in the fall about conspiracy rhetoric and conspiracy theories, because I'm just perplexed by conspiracy rhetoric right now. Like,
[25:03] why? So it'll be really fun to plan that class, but it'll be even more fun to teach it because I learn with my students, and they bring insights that I don't know.
[25:15] So, yeah, I think that's what I always loved about the job and what I keep loving.
[25:20] Christina Donovan: Do you enjoy the actual teaching part in front of the class?
[25:26] Alexa Dare: Less and less. I'm finding that teaching is. It's like this very. This is the puzzle for me professionally, which is I've been teaching for,
[25:37] oh, like, 15 years in higher ed, and it feels like if you've been doing something for 15 years, you should, like,
[25:46] feel pretty good at doing it. And every year feels like a new kind of struggle to figure out, like, why isn't this going the way I want it to go?
[25:53] Or how do I need to adapt or new technologies to accommodate or something. So I'm. I have felt a kind of frustration with my own kind of lack of satisfaction with my skill level.
[26:10] And so that's. It's the teaching part. Like, I'm not loving it, but I'm not loving it, especially because it just feels like a ton of work for something that I should be able to do in my sleep.
[26:23] Christina Donovan: But is that because you keep designing new courses? Yeah.
[26:27] Alexa Dare: You're putting two things together. Like, there's a mode of doing this in which I did the same course over and over again that probably feels a little different, so. Exactly. It's my own.
[26:39] It's my own doing.
[26:40] Christina Donovan: I feel like you've alluded to it, but what. What are you struggling with right now?
[26:46] Alexa Dare: I think.
[26:48] Well, yeah, certainly at the kind of immediate level.
[26:53] Struggling with trying to imagine what doing my job in the form that it's in right now for another 15, 20 years. That feels challenging.
[27:06] Challenging because higher ed is changing, so my industry is changing a ton. And I am in a position that I have, like, zero control over how those changes land on the work that I do.
[27:19] And so it just feels a little, like, uncertain about what my job will look like in five years, let alone in 10 years, let alone in 15. And it's also an industry that's, like,
[27:30] very competitive. So, you know, I can't easily find another job that would be the equivalent of the job I have now. Certainly not in Portland,
[27:41] maybe elsewhere.
[27:43] So I think that feels. That feels like the kind of Middlescence struggle, a professional struggle right now is how to keep doing the work in an industry that's changing significantly, keep feeling inspired,
[28:01] maybe have opportunity to, you know,
[28:06] if not retire, work in different ways. That feels like a struggle that at the moment is, like, really hard for me to sort out. And so, um, I'm carrying on with the work as is and, you know, hopeful that there's ways in which I'll be able to.
[28:22] I don't know. I don't even know. Right. I just. That the struggle feels just like a hard way to look, or it's hard for me to see the next.
[28:31] Let's call it 15 years. Something that's easy for me to imagine what that's going to look like. And sometimes that's exciting. And then often that feels just. With that struggle piece,
[28:43] I mean, would.
[28:44] Christina Donovan: You say, like, you're turning 50? Is this. Is 50 what you thought it would be when you were younger?
[28:52] Christina Donovan: I mean, did you have expectations of what, midlife or this?
[28:57] Christina Donovan: A lot of people, when we ask that question are like, I didn't ever really think about it, but no, that's what I think.
[29:04] Alexa Dare: That's exactly right. That little giggle I gave was that, like, I think about my students, students who are, you know, very traditional age. So my students are mostly 18 to 22.
[29:12] And when they want to use an example of an older person, guess what age they say you will. You know this because you have student. You have children that age.
[29:21] It's like 40. Like, that's how they talk. Like, if they're giving an anecdote about, like, this old person that did something the old person needs, that person is 40 years old.
[29:30] And I think that's not them. I think that's how I thought about.
[29:33] Christina Donovan: That's even younger than I would have guessed. I thought you were gonna say 50 or 50.
[29:40] Alexa Dare: Yeah, like 50. That's just off the radar. But I think that's right. I mean, I do think in some ways this was just. This is just old. Like, I didn't. I didn't have much of a imagining about 50.
[29:53] I guess, like, you make a big deal about turning 40. Lordy, Lordy, look who's 40. Those sorts of things. I don't know what I was expecting at 50. It feels hard for me to compare expectations to what it is now.
[30:08] Christina Donovan: I also think the lordy, lordy, look who's turning 40 was like the generation before us. And so now I feel like 50 really is more like what 40 used to be.
[30:22] And I was going to ask, like, with your parents,
[30:25] did they have,
[30:28] I don't know, major changes or do you feel like they struggled in midlife?
[30:33] Alexa Dare: That's a piece that I often think about and it lands for me having had a kid fairly old,
[30:40] like me,
[30:42] exactly like, wow, am I so tired. And I think about if I had had this kid when I was 15 years younger, you know, certainly I wouldn't be tired. But no, I know that that's not the case.
[30:54] But when I think about my parents lives, when they turned 50, they had no kids in the house. You know, like it was a really a different set of questions for them.
[31:08] I don't think they had the same kinds of. Certainly my dad didn't have professional struggles at that age. You know, he was just doing the job.
[31:21] My mom, good question about my mom. I don't know.
[31:25] Christina Donovan: I mean, would you say that you've, you're happy or that you achieved a lot of the personal and professional goals you set for yourself by this age?
[31:37] Alexa Dare: I think that's a really good and hard question for me. I think there's different kinds of metrics and I'm not always sure what metric I want to use.
[31:47] So I mean, like, I'm in a field where like credentials are really important. So like, yes, I got, I, you know, like I completed a PhD and I got tenure and I got hired.
[32:00] So there are things that like at the one level certainly, you know, are impressive.
[32:07] That's like concrete. But I think there's other metrics too about like,
[32:13] I think that feels like I won't know what those are until I sort out what the next few years are going to be, which is. Yeah. What? Well, certainly I don't treat having a credential as being like the end marker of success professionally in higher ed.
[32:31] Otherwise the metrics are,
[32:33] they're, they're hard to fully, I don't know, get a standardized sense of. So each field is a little different, each kind of environment. You know, I'm at a teaching school, so research is like not a huge part of, we get evaluated and yet, you know, research is something that I'm interested in.
[32:53] So I have to kind of set up my own sense of like, has this been successful or not? So I feel uncertain about a lot of the other ways in which I would feel satisfied with accomplishments at this stage.
[33:07] Stage. You know, I do sometimes think, like, if I left my job this year, let's say, you know, what would I,
[33:17] what would I feel like was left undone?
[33:21] And that does not have to do with the teaching part of the job, but it has to do with some of the research and the writing stuff that always is like harder for me to fit in.
[33:32] That feels like I still have work to do there. And that is probably the season that I would enter in this, the next decade, let's say, of this job is to be able to do some more research.
[33:46] Christina Donovan: I think is interesting that my question was if, if we could wave a magic wand and you got to design your dream job, like, do you know even what that would look like or what jumps out at you as what you want it to?
[34:04] And it sounds like research would be part of it.
[34:08] Alexa Dare: Yeah. But then sometimes I think, oh, maybe it's like being a ski instructor.
[34:13] Christina Donovan: Yeah, no, and that's okay too.
[34:15] Alexa Dare: It's like maybe it's more than one job. Maybe that's what it is.
[34:19] Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I don't know. A dream job. You know, I have another course that I designed, um, a couple years ago I called the Future of Work. And so we were thinking about especially AI.
[34:31] In that moment was a lot about how AI is going to change work, but also just thinking about, like, what, like what is good work and what is work for.
[34:40] And that's really fun to do with 20 year olds, although sometimes a little challenging too. But I don't think I, you know, at the end of that whole course, I don't come out with a sense of like, what is.
[34:50] What would that look like? What perfect work could look like? It's. It's hard to say. But yes, I do think I'm writing and researching like a bit more of my time toward that and a bit less toward the teaching stuff.
[35:03] Sounds like that would be nice.
[35:04] Christina Donovan: What do you think your superpower is?
[35:08] Alexa Dare: I think I am like supernaturally adaptive. I think I have the ability to adapt to all sorts of situations in ways that are. Yeah. Make it easy to manage challenges or issues like that.
[35:31] Christina Donovan: Does that include people? I feel like you're really adaptive and get along well with people.
[35:37] Alexa Dare: Yeah, I think so. I have a friend at work who says that I can stay above the fray, which I think is another way of thinking about it.
[35:46] Christina Donovan: Do you feel like Franny has some of that too? I mean, she's so young, she's going to change quite a bit.
[35:51] Alexa Dare: But. Yeah, no, that's a good question. I mean, I, I hope it for her at one level, like, I do think that being able to adapt in different cultures and contexts feels like a really useful skill.
[36:05] Especially like thinking about a kid and who knows where she's going to go or what world she's going to grow into. Yeah. I don't know about the social part of that because I think the other side of being above the fray or adaptive socially is a conflict avoidance, which I carry in droves.
[36:23] And that's not something I would necessarily hope for any or other people. Right. Like, there's ways in which being a little better at managing and negotiating conflict is probably useful.
[36:37] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[36:38] Christina Donovan: I think being adaptive,
[36:41] it's a tremendous superpower. But I also think, like, I'm impressed that as you've gotten older, that you've continued that, because I feel like just now. Or maybe it's just a stereotype that older people get less adaptive.
[36:56] I mean, I think I have and I think my husband has. Matt has, too. So. Yeah, I guess I'm jealous that you continue to have that.
[37:05] Christina Donovan: And my impression is that you love new challenges. And like you said, you're always, like, getting out there, you know, trying new things.
[37:19] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[37:20] Christina Donovan: Seeking. I was trying to remember the word maybe just because I feel like I'm old and gray. You seem so young.
[37:28] Alexa Dare: Oh, my God. Let's just end it right here. That's here today. I do. I will say that I do think working with college students is, you know, anything. Working with any kind of teachers probably keeps you young at some level.
[37:44] Like.
[37:45] Christina Donovan: Well, I'm sure you're more connected to a younger set. So, you see, I think. I mean, even Matt talks about how, you know, young employees come in and talk about stuff.
[37:55] And he's like, you know, I've never heard of things that they say. Or, like, he'll come home and ask our kids, like, have you ever heard of this? And I've never heard of it, but of course they have, you know.
[38:05] Christina Donovan: Yeah, that even happens with Nimit, too.
[38:10] Itchy Bear Week. He's like, have you guys heard of Itchy Bear Week? And both our boys are like, yeah, dad. And he's like, I've never heard of this.
[38:19] Alexa Dare: I've never heard of Itchy Bear A Week either.
[38:21] Christina Donovan: I think it's a television special. Like, the bears come out and they. I guess there's all these videos of bears scratching their back. So it's like an Itchy Bear thing. We may have to edit that out.
[38:36] But that's.
[38:39] Alexa Dare: I want that to be the title.
[38:44] Christina Donovan: What would you say you're most proud of personally and. Or professionally, and you still have lots of time to go, but.
[38:56] Alexa Dare: No, that's a good. I don't know. I don't know what it is. Most proud of I mean, it just feels so minor, but just like,
[39:08] staying healthy, sort of staying to our family values and hopes and dreams, like, just. I don't know, staying on the path feels like something that, I don't know, that I would say proud of.
[39:23] But there's just something about, like, I don't know, like, maybe just showing up day after day to this life and doing it with, like, our best intentions and biggest hearts.
[39:35] Christina Donovan: I love that. I mean, I think of you and.
[39:38] Christina Donovan: Pat as I do, too. I love.
[39:40] Christina Donovan: Very intentional.
[39:42] And that at least is my impression. I don't know if you feel that way, but from an outsider and hearing you express that, I think is something to. Yeah, maybe proud isn't the right word, but I think it does apply.
[40:00] Christina Donovan: I mean, do you think of you and Pat as being intentional? I mean, I agree with Terry.
[40:06] I think of you both that way. But is that an adjective you would use to describe yourself and Pat?
[40:15] Alexa Dare: It's. I don't know that I would use it unprompted. But, like, I so appreciate both of you saying that and, like, noticing that. And.
[40:25] Yeah, I. I suppose that is right. That we are intentional and I think thoughtful.
[40:35] Christina Donovan: Like, it's kind of the same thing. But you really think through what you want and what's important to you.
[40:45] Alexa Dare: I think that's. That's accurate.
[40:46] Christina Donovan: Yeah. So what are you passionate about?
[40:53] Alexa Dare: Well,
[40:54] I mean, it's sort of what we've already said in. Or I've already said in a couple of places, but I am more and more passionate about the outdoors in, like, a broad sense.
[41:07] So personally getting outdoors. But also I'm just thinking about the value for young people of being able to spend time outdoors. And that's why I sort of joke about being a ski instructor.
[41:20] There's something about, like, outdoor ed that has always called to me and feels like something that might be part of my second half future.
[41:30] Christina Donovan: I know. I mean, my kids, they're older than Franny, but they worry that stuff that they do outside now, they're not going to be able to do when they're our age.
[41:41] The opportunities to be outside are going to change in ways that we can't imagine.
[41:48] It scares me when they talk about that, but I understand why they think that way, you know.
[41:55] Alexa Dare: Yeah, no, I think that's right. And it's like, it is scary. And I actually cry in class sometimes talking to my students about, like they're, you know, I think we can be a little more Pollyanna.
[42:12] Ish. Maybe as the older generation. I don't know I'm not even sure if it's a generational thing. It might just be the kinds of conversations. But yeah, my students are very realistic in ways that are, like, heartbreaking about what their future is going to be and their future in terms of the natural world in particular.
[42:31] Yeah.
[42:34] I don't disagree with them. And yet I wish there was.
[42:39] I wish I could just say, like, no, but I'm the, I'm the elder here. Trust me,
[42:45] you're going to find beauty wherever the world takes you, which may be true, but they also see this world as burning, you know, and.
[42:54] Christina Donovan: Yeah, but I also think it's a positive that they care and in a way are scared that I hope that will help make, you know, make changes and make things better.
[43:06] Christina Donovan: Yeah, like, maybe they'll be able to do what we haven't been able to. Yeah, yeah,
[43:12] yeah. I think they, I think they worry, though, too much damage has been done. But, yeah,
[43:18] well.
[43:18] Alexa Dare: And I do think there's a. There's a level of resentment too, of like, well, yeah, sure, we can do anything. We're going to be, you know,
[43:26] we care and we'll be active. But also, like, why did you leave this to us? You know, like.
[43:32] Christina Donovan: Like, why do we have to clean up the mess? Yeah.
[43:34] Christina Donovan: Mm.
[43:36] Alexa Dare: Yeah.
[43:37] Christina Donovan: I mean, do you have advice you would give your younger self?
[43:42] Alexa Dare: Um,
[43:44] I don't know that it's fun to sort of imagine, like, I don't know, at 20, what advice would I give by myself? Um, sometimes I think about, like, career paths not chosen and how that is a kind of fun exercise.
[44:01] But I, I don't feel myself imagining that I would give advice around professional work.
[44:13] Yeah, I think my. I think my advice is often what I tell my students too, which is I,
[44:19] I would have taken even longer to, to, to travel and experiment, like right after college or maybe even right before college that life gets sedimented so quickly once you start on a professional path and there's like, that kind of freedom and like, possibility that happens when you're just.
[44:44] You don't know what you're going to do. That is so, so powerful. And it was underrated in my sense of like, what I should be doing or where I should be going.
[44:53] And so, like, yeah, taking more years to work. Just low waist ski instructor. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Or traveling or whatever that feels like I would not in this moment be regretting that.
[45:10] I can't imagine. And I could imagine that things could have bubbled up out of that that I could never have predicted. So, yeah, I think that would be probably the main source of advice.
[45:23] Christina Donovan: That's a good one. Yeah.
[45:25] Christina Donovan: I mean, again, my kids are older, but both Matt and I have been very like, take your time. You have time. And I don't know, I wish both my, both my two.
[45:38] My older two children who have graduated or are about to graduate college just, they really feel this pressure to kind of get a job and make money, get a job and move forward.
[45:50] And I don't know, I agree with that. Like, this is the time to do some exploration and do the things that you might not be able to later. But I don't know, it's easy, I guess to say that from where we stand, you know, where we are in life.
[46:08] Alexa Dare: Well, and I think it's. I think you're right that like it's kind of more countercultural than it seems like from where we are like, oh, no, we got all this time.
[46:18] But yeah, there's just so much. Well, one, I mean, higher ed costs so much money now that it is a little disingenuous for me to then tell my students like, you have hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt, but, aw, take your time, you know, don't worry about that.
[46:33] Yeah, exactly.
[46:35] But yeah, I just think that's just the story is you go to college so you can start your grown up life and grown up life is.
[46:45] Yeah. Get the, get the right job and the right place and those are all so important. But gosh. Yeah.
[46:52] Yeah. Well, I hope they take some time too.
[46:56] Christina Donovan: Yeah. I mean, hearing you say that, I think of how can we apply that to ourselves now?
[47:05] And I think it's just as you said, it's hard. We have all these responsibilities. We have all these that keep us.
[47:15] Christina Donovan: Pressures.
[47:16] Alexa Dare: I mean.
[47:17] Christina Donovan: Yeah. I mean for those around us and you know that it gets harder. But I think a lot of people think of retirement as this, like freedom that you don't have all that.
[47:32] But I like how you and Pat are thinking of it and that's how I think of it is just more freedom and flexibility but still contributing and still doing something that hopefully you love,
[47:48] that is making a contribution,
[47:52] I don't know, to society into.
[47:55] Alexa Dare: Yep, that's so smart because. Exactly. I think it probably happens to us at every stage that we like. We think that there's like the best choice to make or the best path to follow that's based mostly on like received wisdom or like the talk in the culture and not on data or not on our own sort of careful assessment.
[48:17] Right. Like, yeah, my sort of thinking about what work will look like for the next 15 years is it's all gut, you know, it's not. I haven't been like collecting the data to think about, like, what would it look like if I, you know, took these steps or made these kinds of moves?
[48:36] Christina Donovan: And I do think that can be challenging. I, I'm thinking of one of our previous podcasts was with Kelly and how she's just like trying all these different things and,
[48:48] and with my boys, you know, in middle school and approaching, I feel like there's this big.
[48:57] I want them to try new things. And yet as you're noticing,
[49:02] they get, they get asked to specialize earlier and earlier and I want almost the opposite for them to still keep trying different things to really see.
[49:13] And, and I think part of it is if you find something that you love, that that's great, but if you haven't, then don't feel like you have to specialize too soon and keep looking and exploring.
[49:26] Easier said than done. But I just.
[49:29] Alexa Dare: Well, and does it feel like their peers are specializing or is there like, are there people who are still trying new things?
[49:36] Christina Donovan: No, I feel especially sports wise and activity wise, they want you to not really do too many. Like maybe two. Right. Like that you do one season and then that's it.
[49:51] But,
[49:53] but even in other things, like I love that our middle school, you get assigned specials and I think some parents don't like that. But the principal's like, these kids don't know until you experience it.
[50:08] Like they may find something new that they've never tried before. They didn't think they would like that they could. I mean, Tina, you have older kids, so I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.
[50:20] Christina Donovan: Yeah, well, I think particularly in high school, it is true. I mean most of the activities are so intensive. It is just from a time management point of view. It's difficult to do multiple sports or sports and music or you know, I mean even like robotics or like we have business clubs that I know are very time consuming.
[50:45] So yeah,
[50:46] it is hard, I think at that age. I think it is very different from when we were younger.
[50:52] Christina Donovan: We're almost out of time. Alex, any anything you wish we had asked or you're surprised we didn't ask?
[51:01] Alexa Dare: No, but I do. I mean, because we don't get to chat all that often, I do feel like. Well, I wish it wasn't quite so one sided. I should have asked you all.
[51:11] Can I just ask you what, what are you both passionate about right now?
[51:16] Christina Donovan: I'm passionate about,
[51:18] I think our Family and just hoping to raise healthy,
[51:25] kind, loving boys.
[51:30] And I mean, I'm trying to figure out my work, so I'm kind of experimenting and trying to see where that can go. I feel like that's been kind of similar, like, since I turned 50, so of, like, I know I want it different, but how can I make it different and still find what I want?
[51:55] So I'm. I'm in there with you,
[51:59] and my work has heard that. So, you know, and they're. They're trying to help me, but I'm also trying to do some things like this on my own. That feels like a passion project and wanting.
[52:12] I went to life coaching school, so I want to do more life coaching.
[52:16] And yet there's always the wanting to.
[52:20] Tara Bansal: Just rest and not be juggling so.
[52:23] Christina Donovan: Many things because that's. I feel like I have to stop complaining about that because it's like my own creation. But it is something that I would love. You know, I keep saying I want a simpler life, and then I'm making another podcast and I'm like,
[52:45] doing more and more. So.
[52:48] Alexa Dare: Yeah.
[52:48] Christina Donovan: And I mean, I don't know. That's probably a good question to ask me six months from now. I mean, I'm in the final push of Jim graduates from college in May and Jack graduates high school.
[53:01] So we have kind of getting Jack into college.
[53:07] These next three months are very specific for me.
[53:11] Yeah. It's kind of getting that last push of these kids out of the nest,
[53:17] so. Which is a very bittersweet. It's important, but it's still hard.
[53:22] Alexa Dare: Yeah. I can't imagine. Yep. That's a lot. Well, and that's like the third. I don't know, just the third. Leaving feels like that's a really. The big moment.
[53:35] Christina Donovan: Yeah, it is. And he's probably going to go far away, so that's. It'll be a big change.
[53:41] Christina Donovan: Yeah. Oh, this was so fun. Makes me want to just sit and talk with you forever.
[53:48] Alexa Dare: Same. It was really. I mean, I will have to say to both of you, like, it's really inspiring and awesome that you guys are doing this. How fun.
[53:57] And, like, a lot of work for a really cool passion project. So I am inspired.
[54:04] Christina Donovan: Yeah, thanks. We're trying to do it.
[54:07] Christina Donovan: Yeah. We really appreciate you taking the time to talk and being willing to share.
[54:13] Alexa Dare: Yeah. Super fun. Therapeutic. I mean, I'm like, I am definitely in the what am I doing with my life coming up to 50 thing in. In a, like, not a heavy way.
[54:23] Just it's part of my preoccupations these days, so it helps.
[54:27] Christina Donovan: But I think that's a good thing. It's like a, you know, thing question.
[54:32] Christina Donovan: Yeah, I agree.
[54:34] Christina Donovan: Your time, well and all of that.
[54:36] Alexa Dare: Absolutely.
[54:39] Christina Donovan: Thank you again.
[54:41] Tara Bansal: Today's recommendation is to listen to an episode of Dr. Laurie Santos podcast called the Happiness Lab. This episode is how to find your purpose with Jordan Grumet. Dr. Laurie Santos is a psychology professor at Yale University and teaches their most popular class of all time, Psychology and the Good Life,
[55:04] which has also been created into a free Coursera program. In case you're interested, I listen to a good number of podcasts and the Happiness Lab is one I listen to occasionally.
[55:16] This episode was sent to me by my good friend Bob Eng and I feel like it is one that everyone should listen to. In how to find you'd purpose, Dr.
[55:25] Santos interviews Jordan Grumet, the author of the book the Purpose Code. He gives seven valuable and doable tips for finding your purpose. They talk about how purpose doesn't have to be some big huge thing like curing cancer.
[55:41] He talks a lot about little P purpose, which I loved, and finding and paying attention to small moments of joy and things that spark interest in you.
[55:52] Each of our purposes in life are are unique and different and not to let other people's expectations influence yours. Purpose is not a goal, but a process or a journey.
[56:03] I just loved his tips and messages and really want more people to listen to the wisdom of this podcast. There will be a link to it on the website where you can search the Happiness Lab and how to find.
[56:16] Christina Donovan: Your purpose to find it wherever you.
[56:18] Tara Bansal: Listen to podcasts, I hope that you Will give it a try.
[56:22] Tara Bansal: It's only 43 minutes long and I think it's well worth your time.
[56:26] Christina Donovan: For show notes and other information about our podcast, please Visit our website messymiddlesence.com if you enjoyed listening, please help spread the word about our podcast by sending a link to a family member or friend.
[56:41] And don't forget to leave a positive rating or review for us. As always, we hope you will return for more.
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Alexa Dare (Ph.D., 2008, University of Denver) joined the Communication Studies department in 2013, after teaching for several years in adjunct and visiting positions. Before moving to Portland, Alexa taught at the University of Montana, Saginaw State University, San Francisco State University, California State East Bay, and Gonzaga University.
I research and teach about the sometimes disparate things that interest me, including memes, activism and social change, transnational collaboration, visual representations of child migration, the implications of disembodied online education, the way that pregnant workers negotiate work spaces, nonhuman animal agency, meaningful work, and gendered leadership. I work and teach at the intersection(s) of Cultural Studies, Organizational Communication, and Environmental Communication. I love building collaborative research projects with students and colleagues. Two of my recent collaborations include an article in Environmental Communication with Dr. Vail Fletcher and Gender, Communication and the Leadership Gap, a book I co-edited with Dr. Carolyn Cunningham and Dr. Heather Crandall. I am the faculty advisor for Lambda Pi Eta, the Communication Honors Society.I like to spend time outside with family and friends, hiking, biking and playing in the woods. I also like eating donuts and making pizza.