22. Err on the Side of Presence
“The things that we feel like we can’t do are probably the things that are most important for us to be doing in terms of meaning and meeting other people.”
Season #2 of Messy Middlescence begins with a heavy and difficult topic: grief. It may seem like an odd choice for a season opener but Tina’s family and community experienced an unexpected and tragic loss just a few weeks ago. It was a personal reminder that these middlescence years are often full of painful and sorrowful events. We may encounter the loss of — not just older family members — but of friends, neighbors or colleagues. It caused us to think deeply and personally about how do we get through difficult times of grief and loss? How do we help people we care about who have suffered a devastating loss?
This past January, a guest essay was published in the NY Times titled, “Train Yourself to Always Show Up” by Rabbi Sharon Brous. This essay, which is excerpted from her book “the Amen Effect”, made a profound impression on both Tara and Tina. It was an article and topic they had planned to discuss in the future, and in light of the recent personal circumstances, the timing felt right to begin the season with these topics.
In this episode, Tina and Tara discuss and explore the beautiful words and ideas from Rabbi Brous’s article, which can act as a guiding light for those in middlescence. These include:
the importance of fighting the natural instinct to withdraw - regardless of whether you are the one grieving or the one trying to support someone grieving;
the need for community and bearing witness both in joy and in suffering;
how losing a friend differs from losing a family member;
the loss of rituals and traditions around grief in modern society and its implications for both individuals and communities.
This episode is the first of several that will attempt to tackle these difficult and painful topics.
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Tara Bansal: Hi, this is Tara Conti Bansal, and I want to welcome you to season two of our podcast, Messy Middlescence. My sister, Christina Conti Donovan and I are in the thick of midlife and trying to help ourselves and others to learn about and hopefully thrive in this unique phase of life.
Tara Bansal: Like adolescence, middlescence is a time of tremendous change, touching almost every aspects of our lives. There are the physical and hormonal changes, but also many of the rhythms, relationships and frameworks that have dominated our lives for decades all start to shift in various ways. Tina and I are figuring this out as we go, and we hope you will join us as we dive into and discuss topics and ideas that will help all of us grow and understand this special midlife phase and how to live it better, more meaningfully and joyfully, one day at a time.
Christina Donovan: Welcome back to season two of messy middlescence. This is Christina or Tina Donovan, and I am here with my sister Tara. Hello, Tara Conti Bansal for our first episode of our second season of messy middle essence, we hope everyone had a terrific summer. And instead of maybe talking about summer and fun things, we're going to just jump in with both feet into some really difficult topics. Today we're not going to ease in at all, so I guess we apologize upfront for that. But today we're going to be discussing grief and community and some really hard stuff around death of loved ones. I'd like to say in discussing topics for this upcoming season, I pushed really hard to begin with this difficult topic in light of a recent personal and communal tragedy that we had here recently on College Hill. We talked a little bit last season about how these middlescent years can be full of very difficult and sorrowful events. Often we're dealing with the loss of parents and older family members, but also sometimes that of friends and neighbors and co workers. And I guess what we want to talk about today is how you and we get through difficult times of grief and loss and how do we help people that we care about who have suffered a devastating loss. And I think Tarrie and I both know there's no one answer and everyone's experience is different. But one of the things that we want to talk about in light of this are some ideas, I guess, is how I would describe it that were discussed in a New York Times op ed titled train yourself to always show up. This was an article that was written by Rabbi Sharon Brouse, and when I first read the piece, which is actually an excerpt from her book, which is called the Amen Effect, I immediately texted a link to Tara. It was something that really resonated for me last January. I mean, it's, I guess, eight or nine months old at this point when I first read it. But in light of some of the events and circumstances of the last month or so, I have found myself going back to it over and over. We're going to start, I guess, by discussing some of the things around that and then kind of branch out from there. Yeah.
Tara Bansal: I mean, Tina did send me the article, and I love it. Like, I've now read it probably five or six times. And each time it's so beautifully written but also just so touching. As Tina said, we want to have some deep conversations here. And I, my usual disclaimer, I am a crier. I get teary very easily. Just put your seatbelt on and deal with that, because that's who I am. Why don't Tina go ahead and I'll let you start with the article if you want, and or what's happened that kind of brought this to the forefront for you and your family?
Christina Donovan: Well, the article begins by describing an ancient Jewish practice from the third century, and it talks about this ritual where they would have, she says, hundreds of thousands of people. I mean, I don't really know that there was that many people involved, but they would gather in Jerusalem and they would enter into the Temple Mount, which I guess was a huge temple with this huge plaza in it. As people would enter the plaza, they would turn right en masse and kind of walk counterclockwise around the plaza. So you had one. Most of the people are traveling counterclockwise in a circle, but people who were broken hearted is really how she says it. People who were mourning, were sick, were just suffering, would turn to the left, and so they would be going clockwise. And so you have these two circles of people, one who are doing okay and one who are not doing okay. And as they would encounter each other, the people who are going counterclockwise would address each of the person who was hurting or broken hearted and speak to them, offering a blessing or a word of comfort. So I'm going to quote Sharon Brous here from her article directly, and she says this timeless wisdom speaks to what it means to be human in a world of pain. This year you walk the path of the anguished. Perhaps next year it will be me. I hold your broken heart, knowing that that one day you will hold mine. I really love the idea and the description of this ritual, but it's really her words about grief and community that touched my heart in this article. And I think for those of us who are in our fifties, I mean, you just, you start seeing people around you being affected by sickness and illness and loss. And this idea that, you know, it's coming in your own life, I mean, it's just a matter of time, given our age. And I think that I love those words that, you know, in coming and helping you or in comforting you. Well, prepare me and in a way, comfort and help me. And it's. This idea of community is so important.
Tara Bansal: One of the things that jumped out for me and this ritual highlighted it is that part of life is sometimes you're going to be, I call it the inner circle, or in the circle where you're grieving and asking for and needing help. And to me, in a way, I wonder if that helped normalize that, like, the actual being vulnerable and admitting, like, I'm mourning, I'm struggling. This is hard for me, right?
Christina Donovan: This call for help or this call for support. No, I definitely think that's true.
Tara Bansal: And I know for me.
Christina Donovan: Go ahead, team.
Tara Bansal: Sorry.
Christina Donovan: No, go ahead.
Tara Bansal: For me, when I'm struggling, I do withdraw and not engage.
Christina Donovan: And so, and I think that's one of the major points I think she really tries to make in this article. I mean, she says right up front, like, do not go home. Do not take your broken heart and isolate, like, you know, step out. And I think it is very. I don't think you're alone. I think that the natural instinct in people is to withdraw, and it's also natural. I think our instinct is to withdraw from other people. Give them space, give them privacy, like, give them time to work through their grief. And what she's saying is, no, like, you really have to work against this tendency and this tendency, and it's hard. And that's why, I mean, I love the article, the title of the article, train yourself to never. I mean, to always show up this idea that these things aren't easy and that you have to work at it, you have to force it.
Tara Bansal: And that is a training.
Christina Donovan: Right.
Tara Bansal: It's not natural. It's not in a way.
Christina Donovan: So when these things happen, you have the muscle, like, you have the memory muscle to kind of work through some of these really difficult things.
Tara Bansal: But that's also to me, and maybe it's just like a craving or a desire for more rituals that help make it easier. Maybe that wouldn't make a difference. But, I mean, I think that's part of what the Jewish traditions and the church that I feel like used to be more central and part of the neighborhood and the community helped provide more of those kind of rituals and structure of what to do. I don't know if it's that we're afraid to be vulnerable or we don't know what to do. If it's all the above, it is all the above.
Christina Donovan: I mean, one of the things I heard recently, we were at a service for a friend, and their family was saying how this was the first death that they've had in their family in 18 years, which sounds like a lot, but I don't like, in terms of the sheer number of years of not having a death of a close family member. But I don't think that's that unusual anymore. I think that people are living longer. Like 100 years ago, when you were in a small community, you were exposed to death and the rituals around mourning and support way more than we are now. I think.
Tara Bansal: Yeah, I mean, like 100 years ago, the number of children who died. Right. And the families that experienced that was vastly different than it is now.
Christina Donovan: Right.
Tara Bansal: Like, with medical technology and different things, I mean, its more rare for a family to lose a child. And like you're saying its just doesn't happen as often in the way it used to.
Christina Donovan: Well, just, yeah, I think people used to grow up watching these rituals and traditions, and we just, we don't. We just don't anymore. I feel like when something happens, it's a tragedy and it's a big deal, but people aren't equipped with this muscle memory or these practices and rituals on what to do. And I think that not knowing what to do is also a part of why we withdraw and why we pull back when we should be reaching forward.
Tara Bansal: Yeah, I mean, one of the quotes that I love from the book was, you know, the healthier people, you know, who encountered someone in pain would look into that person's eyes and inquire what happened to you. Why does your heart ache? One like to look the people in the eye, but the other even just the question of, like, I wanna know.
Christina Donovan: Be curious.
Tara Bansal: She talks about the awkwardness and the importance of presence, of just being there to witness.
Christina Donovan: I know it's similar to the quote you just had, but the one quote that really speaks to me is when she says, it is an expression of both love and sacred responsibility to turn to another person in their moment of deepest anguish and say, your sorrow may scare me, it may unsettle me, but I will not abandon you. I will meet your grief with love. That's just really powerful to me, to acknowledge that. I mean, part of the reason I think people do pull back is this. It is unsettling, it is hard, and it's a reminder of what we will one day go through if we're not experiencing it right now.
Tara Bansal: Yeah. And I know for me there's this fear and doubt, like, will I be able to handle it?
Christina Donovan: Yeah, I know. I think that's true, and I think that's normal. Nobody can know how you're going to react in situations like this and how you cope. And that fear of just. Of the pain and the unknowing, it's hard. I guess one of the things, too.
Tara Bansal: That.
Christina Donovan: I wanted to talk about today that we lost in our community. He was a friend, my husband's and part of our social circle, a pillar in our community, really. Everybody knew him, and he died very suddenly. One of the things that I think for people our age that is really difficult is when you lose a peer or a friend and how different this is than losing a family member. I know for us, my husband, when he found out about the death of his very close friend, like, he was off, he was on vacation, actually, for that week. And I think back, and I'm just like, thank God he didn't have to go into work. He was able to take a couple days and just kind of grieve and be with other people who had, were experiencing a similar loss. But it just pointed out to me, like, how when you lose a friend, there is no, like, there's no bereavement policy. I mean, I don't think he could call his work and be like, I can't go to work today. Like, I lost a close friend, and.
Tara Bansal: Yet you get one. If a family member were to pass.
Christina Donovan: Away, they get you. I think that most people get some time off when it's a family member. And that's the thing. I mean, the pain and the grief can be just as overwhelming and significant as a family member.
Tara Bansal: Sometimes more.
Christina Donovan: Sometimes more. I mean, you know, I think particularly for my husband Matt, I mean, this is somebody who he saw regularly one to two times a week. I mean, he probably spent more time with him than he has with his brothers in the last ten years. I'm not saying that he's not close with his brothers, but I'm just trying to show that. I mean, this is going to be. It is. It's a huge hole in his life right now. And I think it's hard to even express that loss with family members or with people. Like, I lost a friend, but it's such a generic term. And it holds so many degrees of close friend, not so close friend, best friend. So I think sometimes people don't even know how to react. When you say, I lost a friend, they say, I'm sorry. But sometimes I think it's difficult just with that terminology to really convey the depth of a loss and the depth of your grief, you know?
Tara Bansal: And I'm being honest and curious, like, of what. What to say besides I'm sorry. Like, to ask questions or not ask questions. What did that person mean to you? Or, how are you handling this, Tina, if just you have any advice or what you've experienced most recently.
Christina Donovan: No, but I do think, like, I know when Matt talked to his family members about the loss of Paul, I think his parents asking, like, how close were you? Or what was your relationship like, your friendship? Like, I think those things would have really helped him. And instead, it was just sort of like, oh, I'm sorry. And they moved on. And I think that people, even I do think people want to talk about it.
Tara Bansal: And to. I mean, I think what I'm hearing at the takeaway is to give those people an opportunity to talk about it, the person. And if they say they don't want to talk about it, then you can respect that. To respect that.
Christina Donovan: Yeah.
Tara Bansal: But to create an opportunity and an openness to ask the questions of, like, what happened to you? How are you feeling? I'm here to listen and witness. Yeah. And I know, Tina, you said how important to be with other people who are going through that do understand. Right. Like, they are feeling the same way or similar way to have each other in those moments in time, especially right at first. Yeah.
Christina Donovan: I think that's been the one, you know, one thing that has really helped. I know that the day that we got the news, I mean, Matt is lucky. He has this very close group of men. And, I mean, they all got together that afternoon and that evening, and then they were together that following Friday. And then, I mean, even after the service, they all congregated. And I know that they are continuing. I think they're really reaching out to one another and checking on each other. But I know that that's the only thing that has really seemed to help him is to kind of be with other people that are experiencing the same loss.
Tara Bansal: You know, I know from, like, I do work with widows, and if there are structures and traditions, a lot of them happened right at first. And that a lot of times, the harder part is later, like, you know, Sharon Salzburg, is that how, you know, in her book, she talked about after her husband died.
Christina Donovan: Oh, Sheryl Sandberg. Yeah.
Tara Bansal: Oh, Sheryl Sandberg. Her husband died suddenly on vacation. And as the year progressed, and some people may have felt like she should have moved on or whatever, but she wasn't. And she felt isolated and alone during that time because I think, one, people were afraid to bring it up, but I feel like that's the harder part, is as time goes on, you still may be suffering and struggling, and either one, being vulnerable about that. But two, the acceptance from other people of that struggle. A month out, a six months out, the year anniversary, all, you know, the first Christmas without certain people, all brings up new emotions or refreshes the emotions. And then I heard this, like, and then almost every death after that brings this, like, new wave of grieving that incorporates and includes the previous grieving.
Christina Donovan: I've never heard that. Yeah, it doesn't surprise me, but, but that, yeah.
Tara Bansal: Building on. And maybe that's some of that. What hasn't, you haven't fully processed or you haven't, you know, like, you never, I mean, people say you never fully move on.
Christina Donovan: I didn't read Sheryl Sandberg's book, but I saw a clip where she talks about that. And, I mean, she talked to just about in this clip how, like you said, several months after her husband's death, she said she'd be at school picking up her kids, and people that she used to talk to wouldn't even say hello anymore. And that's where she said she really started feeling, like, this isolation or this stigma. And, I mean, I think she got it. She was like, people don't know what to say, so they don't say anything. And I totally get that. I mean, I think it goes back to this idea where you withdraw or you don't reach out because you're afraid to say the wrong thing. You're afraid you're gonna remind them. Yeah. And I don't know. That's where reading, like, Sharon Brous article, she is. She just keeps going back to, like, reach out. You know, don't hold back, err on the side of trying to be there. Everybody says the wrong thing at some time. Like, it's not about what you say. It's about trying presence the witness, the, you know, trying to make the connection and to let them know that you're there because it is hard. I don't know. I just, I do really feel like, I always feel like I'm going to say the wrong thing, so I don't say anything.
Tara Bansal: And, and that's worse. Basically, I feel like what they're trying.
Christina Donovan: To do, I mean, that's exactly what they're saying not to do. And. And that's why, I mean, I really do feel like this article was a very, like, it was like a guiding light. Like, these are the things you should do, you know? And. And if you are the person that is hurting, these are the things you should do. Like, they're. They go hand in hand together. Yeah.
Tara Bansal: And I just keep going back to. I feel like for me, showing up when you're hurting feels so hard. And I know that about myself. And one time in particular, I just remember after losing a pregnancy, and I just was really, really struggling. And a good friend just called, and it meant a lot. I wouldn't. I would never have picked up the phone to call her because I didn't feel up to it. And I can even see me, like, depending on the moment, I may not have taken the call, but I did. And I felt like it was so helpful. I just honestly remember how much that meant to be and talking to her. And the article talks about people who you can trust to hold your heart tenderly, too. So I think that is something also in the line of doing this tradition. She doesn't really. I guess its an assumption that everyone will. But I think of in my day to day, of who you feel comfortable being your upset self with.
Christina Donovan: Yeah, I think that's true. I know for me, just with the events of the past week, I mean, we have some families here on the hill that it just had a lot of sorrowful events. And, I mean, I have made myself call and just be like, are you okay? Like, how are you doing? And I don't know if it helps or not, but that article has really motivated you to kind of be more outside myself. Like, place that text swing by. I mean, in our neighborhood, there's a lot of swinging by, you know, knocking on the door, just calling, you know, I think that it just seems like it's a very simple thing to do, but it is. It's hard. Like, it really. You do have to really force yourself. At least for me, it goes outside my comfort zone.
Tara Bansal: No, even for me. Like, I feel like if Matt's a family member, had died, I would have sent a cardinal. And I haven't sent a card because one, I'm not quite sure exactly what to say, and yet that's the point to this is, like, don't worry about what to say. Just do something. Right?
Christina Donovan: Just do something. Just.
Tara Bansal: Yeah, I mean, and the other one word of wisdom that I is, instead of saying, tell me how I can help is just like drop off a dinner and let them know it's there. Like try to take all decisions out and maybe they don't eat the dinner or whatever, but at least I feel like it's an expression of support and care.
Christina Donovan: Yeah.
Tara Bansal: Like, to be specific and try to do something instead of asking them. Right.
Christina Donovan: Because most people, if they are asked.
Tara Bansal: Well, they're not going to say anything, I'm fine.
Christina Donovan: Yeah. Or it's okay.
Tara Bansal: Yeah.
Christina Donovan: Which I think people are very happy to hear. Like, oh, they're doing okay. They don't need.
Tara Bansal: Yeah. Which is, I think, also part of our society. Like, how many times when somebody asks, how are you? You just say, yeah, like, that's the cultural thing, when many of us are not fine right in that moment. Or. But you're not going to share that.
Christina Donovan: Necessarily and get into it. Yeah. I mean, she says another one of my favorite quotes, like showing up for one another doesn't require heroic gestures. It means training ourselves to approach even when our instinct tells us to withdraw. It means going to the funeral and to the house of mourning. It also means going to the wedding and to the birthday dinner. Reach out in your strength. Step forward in your vulnerability. Err on the side of presence. It was beautiful, what she writes.
Tara Bansal: It is so beautiful. I can't say that enough, but it's also, to me, of the showing up when you feel strong or when you're good enough. Right. Like that takes both sides. And I think, I don't know, that's another of, I'm a homebody. And yet it's also to be there for the celebrations and for the other things to enjoy the joy of life too. Right. When you can. And to be there. I don't know. I'm not expressing it well, but.
Christina Donovan: No, but I do think it's, in our society, we're also busy. Like we're all tired. You know what I mean? And it does, it takes effort, whether it is going to the birthday celebration or going to the dinner. I mean, it does get off your sofa, don't stop scrolling on your phone. Like, the things that we feel like we can't do are probably the things that are most important for us to be doing, you know, in terms of meaning other people. And because ultimately, like, those are the things that are going to get us through these sorrowful events and they're going to be there. Nobody escapes it.
Tara Bansal: Right. And that's part of what I loved about this tradition, is you are going to have times of being, of grieving, of struggling and. Yeah, and that's a fact of life and to accept and ask for help and to show up and, yeah, I just know for me to show up, you know, and that's the title of it.
Christina Donovan: Yeah, train yourself.
Tara Bansal: Train yourself to always show up. And to me, it's what stands out. Each of those words train, we talked about that, like, this doesn't come naturally. There is some effort and going against your instinct always. So like consistently and then the showing up instead of like doing it right or being perfect, it's more, you know.
Christina Donovan: Presence, the presence, the attempt, the.
Tara Bansal: Yeah, the effort, the actual being there instead of the doing it right. It's just the actual effort to be there. So each of those, I think, is important and it is. It's just a really great article that I hope people take a look at. And it touches you as much as it touched Tina and I because, I mean, like, yeah, it's now been several months and it just keeps coming up in multiple ways for me.
Christina Donovan: Like I said, for me it's like, especially with the recent events, when I talk about it being a guiding light, I just, I really mean that, like, I keep going back to it and it's an inspiration and it's almost like a guide. Like, these are the things you should be doing.
Tara Bansal: We would love to hear from you on recommendations you have during what you needed or what you did to help others in times of struggle or Grief. We Would love to hear your stories. We want this to be a two way street, so any sharing would be greatly appreciated by both Tina and I on this. Yeah, as Tina said, we jumped in with both feet to a pretty heavy, deep emotional topic. But we feel like this was important to us and that's part of why we started with this, because it is what is first of mind right now and we wanted to talk about it. What else, Tina, for you?
Christina Donovan: No, I think you summed it up pretty well for people who are interested. Sharon Brouss book the Amen effect goes into a lot more detail. It's definitely worth checking out. I have also watched her interviewed. You can find clips on YouTube and she's a very dynamic, charismatic speaker. So that might also be something that if you're interested in, we can put some links in our show notes, but that might also be something worth following up on if you were as captivated by some of the things from her article as we were.
Tara Bansal: And in the show notes, we'll also put links to a couple of poems that both Tina and I liked and identified with in addition. But yeah, if you are struggling, reach out. If you had the strength, keep showing up and help those around you. Have a good week everyone.
Christina Donovan: Thanks for listening. Last season we ended each episode with a quote that was relevant to our discussion or interview. For the second season, we decided to change it up a bit. We will be ending each episode with a recommendation of a book, song, artist, show, movie, basically something that has touched Tara and I in some way and that we wish to share. Tara and I will alternate our recommendations and I should add that they may or may not be relevant to the topic at hand. My first recommendation is actually a song. I first heard this version from my oldest child, Maggie. It is a remake of the Fleetwood Mac song Landslide and it is performed by the band the Chicks, formerly known as the Dixie Chicks. I hope you will take a listen. It is a fresh and modern take on a classic song that describes the shifting landscapes of middle age pretty perfectly.
For show notes and other information about our podcast, please visit our website messymiddlescence.com. if you enjoyed listening, please help spread the word about our podcast by sending a link to a family member or friend. And don't forget to leave a positive rating or review for us. As always, we hope you will return for more.
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"Train Yourself to Always Show Up" Guest Essay from the New York Times, Jan. 19, 2024. If you do not have a subscription to the NY Times, please use our [Gift Link].
"The Amen Effect"; book by Sharon Brous. https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/720048/the-amen-effect-by-sharon-brous/
Poem: "The Friend" by Alice Kavonas. Available on The Inspired Funeral website
Option B: Facing Adversity, Building Resilience, and Finding Joy by Sheryl Sandberg and Adam Grant
Interview with Sheryl Sandberg describing isolation and grief: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa5DbZ2_bu0&t=189s
Poem: "Quietly" by Becky Hemsley
Interview with Rabbi Sharon Brous discussing her book the "Amen Effect": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_Wf-fPpz-M&t=1832s
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