35. Empowered Aging with Margie Zable Fisher
“Motto of ‘The Cabernet Club’ –“Why can’t the rest of your life be the best of your life?”
The Cabernet Club, released in January 2025, is a novel that follows Debbie Gordon as she seeks big changes and fulfillment in the second half of her life. The book is a light, funny and captivating read that still manages to highlight and explore many of the more serious aspects of the middlescence journey. It is co-authored by the late Rona S. Zable and her daughter, Margie Zable Fisher.
In today’s episode we speak with Margie Zable Fisher about her new book, The Cabernet Club, her mother, writing fiction and Margie’s own middlescence journey. There are so many topics we wanted to delve into with Margie who left her long-time career in PR to become a full-time writer after age 50. Margie (as was her mother) is both a huge proponent, as well as a prime example, of the importance of using your middle age years to create the life you want. Margie introduces the idea of “empowered aging” as she discusses the challenges and successful steps she embarked on when she turned 50.
We hope you find our conversation with Margie as delightful and fascinating as we did.
Some of the many topics we discuss include:
“The Margie Project” which was a year of intentional experiences when she turned 50 and how it ultimately left her feeling better and more empowered;
The importance of friendship – especially as we age – along with the idea that being a friend is a skill that we can learn and improve;
Margie’s loss of her mother, the promise she made to her, and how that changed her life;
How and why she shifted careers from PR to freelance writing;
The steps Margie took to learn how to write fiction
The belief that it is possible to have a happy retirement on a budget;
The comparisons between Rona Grable and Debbie Gordon, the protagonist of The Cabernet Club.
The plans for the next two books which will continue with The Cabernet Club characters;
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[[00:22] Tara: Hi, this is Tara Conti Bansal and I want to welcome you to season two of our podcast, Messy Middlescence. My sister Christina Conti Donovan and I are in the thick of midlife and trying to help ourselves and others to learn about and hopefully thrive in this unique phase of life. Like adolescence, mid is a time of tremendous change touching almost every aspects of our lives. There are the physical and hormonal changes, but also many of the rhythms, relationships and frameworks that have dominated our lives for decades. All start to shift in various ways. Tina and I are figuring this out as we go and we hope you will join us as we dive into and discuss topics and ideas that will help all of us grow and understand this special midlife phase and how to live it better, more meaningfully and joyfully, one day at a time.
[01:21] Tina: This is Christina Or Tina Conti Donovan and I'm here with my sister, Tara Conti Bansal. And we are absolutely thrilled today to be with Margie Zabel Fisher, author of the recently published book the Cabernet Club, which was written with her late mother, Rhona S. Zabel. Before becoming a full time writer, Margie owned a PR agency for 20 years. And the opening quote from the Cabernet Club, her book is, it is never too late to be who you might have been. Which sums up why we are so excited to speak with Margie about the Cabernet Club as well as her own Middlescence journey. So welcome Margie.
[02:06] Margie Z. Fisher: Thank you for having me.
[02:08] Tara: I feel like that quote should be front and center on our website. That's like what Messy Middlescence is all about is this next phase and people pursuing what it is that they want. We always start. Our first question is, what is your story? That's what Brene Brown starts with. And I like it as a beginning too. So tell us about yourself.
[02:34] Margie Z. Fisher: Okay, well, I can do that. However, I'd like to do the messy Middlescence version, if you're cool with that.
[02:41] Tina: Sure, definitely.
[02:44] Margie Z. Fisher: Okay, so let's start when I was 49 and I was very, very depressed. And I've told this to people before, I think it's mostly a woman thing. But you know, when we're thinking about hitting 50, it's a really big, scary milestone for many of us. And it was for me. I wasn't 50, feeling like I knew what I wanted to do with my life. You know, I was 49, but I still didn't know what I wanted to do with my life. You know, I didn't had I achieved Everything, I don't know, who knows? Anyway, I was very sad and conflicted, so I was trying to figure things out and everyone kept saying to me, well, you should have a 50th birthday party. Nope, that was boring. And I'm an introvert, so parties aren't my jam anyway. And then people kept saying, go traveling. And we had done a fair bit of traveling and I didn't want to just be forced to do something just because I was turning 50. So I said, okay, I think I'm going to do something different and I'm going to do a year of experiences. And those experiences would be every month I would do something different with a friend, or more than one friend, to try and jolt myself into my 50s, maybe learn some things about myself, find a new passion, whatever. I just wanted to try new things. So I did that. And early on, as I was telling a few friends about that, one of them dubbed this year of experiences as the Margie Project, which was pretty apropos. Yeah, it basically was.
[04:28] Tina: Could you talk about a few of the experiences you were doing, like month to month?
[04:33] Margie Z. Fisher: Yeah. And it's funny, I was just at a library author event yesterday, and as I was talking about this, someone said I should write a book about it. And I said, I've written it. I actually have. It's actually called the 50 year old mermaid, which is. I don't know if we'll get into that here, but anyway, yeah. So let me start by explaining the experiences I went through. So my first experience was learning to ride a motorcycle. I did that with my husband. He is at this point, since my mom's no longer here, probably my best friend. And he's. He wanted to do that with me. And of course I actually wrote a big blog post about this, so I don't want to give any spoilers, but it was very challenging and disheartening in a lot of ways, but ultimately it was a great experience. So we got our motorcycle licenses. That was the first thing. I also did some zip lining, which I had always wanted to do and never had done. And then I also ran a 5K, which I had never done. I wasn't ever a runner, but one of my friends was a really great runner and had done lots of races and that kind of thing, so she helped me through that. And then I did some more tame things like having a tea party. I'd never had high tea before, even though I love tea. I know that sounds probably silly and basic, but that was like my capstone event with a Bunch of friends, a high tea. And then.
[06:07] Tara: Where did you do that?
[06:08] Margie Z. Fisher: There's a little tea place about 20 miles north of here. And we all met and it was really, really fun. And we talked about things. It was really nice. Yeah. And I went to a numerologist, which is kind of like a psychic, but you use numbers to figure out things about your life, which is super fun. I did that with a friend and some other things in between. But what happened was, at the end of the year, I felt good. I had run a 5k, so I was feeling, like, better physically. I had done some interesting things, so I. I felt like, okay, I can get a motorcycle license when I'm 50, right. So I was feeling more optimistic. And then it started me thinking about a lot of other things. And one of the things that came out pretty quickly after that was that I was burnt out from my PR business, which I had had for about 20 years at that point. So around that time, I decided I wanted to shift in the pretty near future to freelance writing full time, which I ended up doing probably about a year later, so that I ended up also starting to do triathlons with the same friend who got me into 5k racing. So I was doing a lot of things that were elevating my career, my health, lifestyle. I was doing all the normal stuff. I was a mom and a wife, you know, all that kind of thing. That was all part of it. But my daughter was getting older, and, you know, I didn't have to do so much parenting stuff, so I was really focused on trying to make my life. The word elevate is kind of corny, but I really feel like that's what I was trying to do.
[08:03] Tara: Couple of questions. Was it one per month, or did you do more than that, or. That was the goal.
[08:10] Margie Z. Fisher: I did one per month.
[08:11] Tara: Okay. And it sounds like each one was with at least one person that. That was part of it also. Okay.
[08:18] Margie Z. Fisher: Right? Yes. It had to be. Yes.
[08:21] Tara: And did you have your list of 12? Like, how long did it take you to come up with your ideas? Was it gradually during the year, or.
[08:31] Margie Z. Fisher: I had a few that I really wanted to do, and the rest. I asked some of my friends. I'm like, what are things you might want to do and what are some interesting things? And they came up with a few things, and there were things I wanted to do that I never got to do. Like, I still want to do goat yoga or puppy yoga. Hear about all that stuff. I love those little baby goats. I don't know. We have them all over here. Just haven't gone yet. Um, you know, things like that. But nothing like. Nothing like swimming with sharks or anything. Although I do swim in the ocean for triathlons, but nothing too nutty. But, yeah, very cool.
[09:09] Tina: Aside from elevating your life, I mean, what would you say you learned from doing all these different experiences? Like, did you walk away learning something or with a different mindset?
[09:22] Margie Z. Fisher: Um, I learned a lot of things. I learned more years after I had that year of experiences than I did during the year of experiences. Because I've had time. I'm 58 now, so I've had time to really process and think about some of those things that ignited some ideas and thoughts in me. But a couple of things came up that I can definitely share. So one is that I felt really empowered because I was feeling like the typical aging stereotype, like, okay, once you're 50, everything is downhill from here, right? And I did not want to buy into that. So by doing things that purposefully broke out of that, like the motorcycle license and the zip lining and just doing what I wanted to do instead of people tell me what to do for my 50th birthday felt very empowering. Another thing I learned in the year of experiences was I chose to do it with friends. And I'm an introvert, but I do value my friendships. But I found, and I'm sure you feel the same way, that my friendships were changing around that time. And also every year, I seemed to develop less and less patience in toleration for negative friendships. So some of those experiences shined a spotlight on people who I really enjoyed being with and some that I really didn't. And it made me start thinking in a much bigger way about all my friendships. So I have a list. I have a list of different friends I want to spend time with for different things that keeps changing. And some of that is because sometimes my memory is iffy, and I'm like, gosh, when did I last see Jane? You know? And it was, you know, a year ago, even though I really want to spend time with her, but really, I'm really cognizant now of being only with people, as my friend says, that are easy to be with, that I don't have to deal with negative energy, judgment, and all that kind of thing. So friendships were really, really front and center about that whole thing. And as we get older, and I've written about this in my freelance life, friendships become even more important than family relationships. So they are so, so important. And I've Tried to be much more mindful about choosing and nurturing friendships since then.
[12:01] Tara: So I love that you have like front and center a list to remind yourself. And how do you nurture these besides just hopefully making time to see them? Are there other ways?
[12:16] Margie Z. Fisher: Yeah, it's a really good question because I have to really work at it. Like I said, I'm an introvert and I'm hardcore. Like you could meet me and you might not ever know it when you see me in person. But I need a lot of alone time. So if it's a choice between going out with someone tonight and just staying in and watching TV, 99% of the time I'll want to default to TV. Okay? So I have to force myself to do that. But I now have boundaries so I know what I'm okay with. So again, these may be a little bit far fetched to some people, but they work for me. So I try not to do more than one weekend night event with other people. So a Friday, Saturday or Sunday night and in a perfect world, all of my interactions with groups of people are 90 minutes or less, okay? So people know when I start getting antsy and or once in a while they'll come to our house and I'll start getting up and same thing and looking at the watch and saying, you know, okay, it's we're getting up early tomorrow. You know, the hint is it's good enough. And that way I know I can enjoy the time. People laugh, you know, they know me by now. But really, I think knowing yourself again, and this took me many years to understand, knowing yourself is one way. But then I also try and learn from. I have friends who are really, really amazing at friendship and I'm learning from them. I'm trying to learn more from them when they do something really great. Like I have one friend who makes a point to call me every week, which is nothing I ever did before. My mother and I used to talk every day before she passed away, but she was the only sort of phone consistent relationship I had. But this friend taught me, oh my gosh, maybe I should actually call people instead of just texting them, right? Or maybe I should do that every week, even just a five minute hello. So these are little things that you just pick up along the way. But I'm trying to be more in tune with that and trying to be very careful also about the words I say. And my. I learned a lot from my husband who's a teacher and he's really good at taking a beat and not saying Something. So I've tried to do that as well. Sometimes, you know, in my head, I'm like, you know, I want to say something, but it may not be the most tactful or nice thing or whatever. So I'm trying to be open to learning and also trying to put that in place. But it is a work in progress, I have to say.
[15:02] Tara: Would you say you've always been someone who likes learning and wants to learn, or is that something that's become more prevalent and intentional with age?
[15:14] Margie Z. Fisher: I think I always have been. I think at times in my life when other priorities were competing, like when my daughter was young and when I was really building my business, I wasn't really thinking that much about that, or I was really focused on business or parenting versus self care. But, you know, like I said, after 50, I think all of us start realizing that there's more to learn than we will ever, ever know. So being curious and interested is a gift, and that that's a gift that keeps giving. So, yeah, I think it just expands as we get older.
[15:54] Tina: I know in your book, you dedicate it to your mother, who you describe as your best friend. How long ago did she pass away?
[16:02] Margie Z. Fisher: A little over two years ago.
[16:04] Tina: Okay, so you turned 50, she was still alive.
[16:07] Margie Z. Fisher: Correct.
[16:08] Tina: Because the other thing I love. You quote your mother as saying that life got better after 50. Is that how she phrased it? Yeah. So I'm wondering, was she a role model for you in. Or did she help kind of in your middlescence journey?
[16:28] Margie Z. Fisher: A million percent? Yes. Yeah. She had a very difficult life, a pretty brutal childhood, very hard life. But if you had met her a couple years ago, she was the most charming, happy person you could ever meet. She really overcame a lot of obstacles and embraced life. And it was really true. A lot of things fell into place, but she made them happen. After 50. After 50, she created a job for herself. After 50, she published her four novels that were young adult and middle grade. She ultimately retired and then came down here and lived a great life. So she was a role model in every way. And we used to talk about it all the time because living in South Florida, we would see a lot of older people. And she knew a lot, I knew a lot. There were very sad and complaining all the time and, you know, about their ailments and how they had no friends and they had no life. And my mom and I always used to say, you know, my mother didn't have much money. She was on a very tight budget, similar to Debbie in the. In the novel. And we used to say, you know, you can live a great life even on a budget. And that's one of the things we wanted to make sure we include it as a theme because we knew it was true. She was the role model for that. And her friends really looked to her as well. I wasn't her only best friend, apparently. She had about six other best friends who I met, who I met at the eulogy. I'm like. They're like, I was her best friend. I was. I'm like, all right. Well, she could share, you know, it's.
[18:14] Tara: Great that she had so many and everybody felt that they were their best friend.
[18:19] Margie Z. Fisher: Yeah, I know. Everyone loved her. So, yeah, it was pretty fun.
[18:23] Tara: Where did you grow up? How did you get down to South Florida?
[18:29] Margie Z. Fisher: So I grew up mostly in Southern Massachusetts, about an hour south of Boston in a place called New Bedford, with a stint of about six or seven years in Atlanta that we went to just as part of my mom trying to find something there. Then we came back to Massachusetts. I went to college in Boston, worked there for a while, New Jersey. And then at the time I was living in New Jersey, met my husband, and I was working for AT&T. And we had the opportunity for me to move with the company to Florida for a new division they were starting. So they were willing to move us. And we had visited and we loved it. We were tired of the cold, so we came to South Florida. So we've been here now almost 30 years.
[19:20] Tara: How old is your daughter now?
[19:22] Margie Z. Fisher: She is 21.
[19:23] Tara: Okay.
[19:24] Margie Z. Fisher: Yep. She's. She's a senior in college at Florida Gulf Coast University in Fort Myers. But she's also a full time first grade teacher. They have a dual program here in Florida. Good for her. Yeah. Great. She and my husband are both teachers. Yep.
[19:41] Tara: What does your husband teach?
[19:43] Margie Z. Fisher: For many years, he was a classroom elementary teacher of all different grades. But now he's a science specialist. So he goes around to all the classrooms and does science experiments, and he really loves it. Very fun. Yeah.
[19:59] Tara: How did you come to write this book? The Cabernet Club?
[20:03] Margie Z. Fisher: Let's see. I mentioned that my mom passed away a little over two years ago. The backstory is kind of sad. She had fallen a few months prior to when she got really sick. And then we didn't know why. And we found out she had pancreatic cancer. And she was staying with us for her last final days in hospice at our house. And I said to her, mom, I'm gonna get your book published. So she at that point she wasn't very coherent. She's like, please don't even. Like, what are you talking about? Don't even bother. We had been talking about this for a while, but I said, yeah, I'm going to do that for you. I don't really know what inspired me to do that. I just felt like I just wanted to say that and I wanted to do something for her. So after she passed, I went through her stuff and she had things on the computer, but she also liked to print everything. She was a little bit old school. Okay. And I'm looking at the pile now. It's a pile about this big. I have it on my bookcase of papers. So I started going through and she would keep every chapter and she would make notes and stuff. So to make a long story short, she put this together over about 20 years. This was her first adult novel. Okay. In the late 80s, early 90s, she had published young adult novels and middle grade novels with major New York City publishers. So she was a published author, but she had never done adult. And it had started as a novel when she was up north. And it was about people, a group of women friends living up north in a really rough winter. It was really sad. And I guess when she moved to Florida, she changed the whole premise because it wasn't sad anymore. It went back to her trademark humor, because she was known for humor. And she joined a writers group down here and things had changed. So over the years she had done a lot of work on this, but she was officially retired, so she wasn't really in a hurry to do anything. She was doing it on her own time. She would write chapters and sometimes bring them to a writer's group because they really like funny stuff. So she would sometimes just write a really funny chapter and not sure where it would go. I've done the same thing since. But, you know, just because she wanted to entertain people, because she loved to hear people laugh and whatever. So to make a long story short, she had the book. It was done, but I knew it had needed. I knew it needed some work because.
[22:42] Tina: Hold on, can I just ask, had you read the book or read the draft of the book before you made the promise to her to get it published?
[22:53] Tara: Yes, yes.
[22:54] Margie Z. Fisher: So, yes, I had read the book previously. I knew it needed work, but I had never really thought about what it needed. But I knew it needed something because I had tried on her behalf. She wasn't in love with technology, so I had tried sending out the book to different agents about a year prior. And hadn't really gotten a good, like. Well, I had a few good responses, but nothing where they said they wanted to give us a contract. So I knew something had to change. I just didn't know what. But I figured that I could figure out what it was and that it would be pretty easy. So I started going through everything. We had a bunch of different iterations and I grabbed all our computer stuff and whatever and went through it. And I'm like, I don't. I don't really know what to do. I realized that, so I took off some work. I told my freelance clients I. I needed to clear the decks. I need to figure out how to get this done, because this was my priority. And I actually ended up having to hire a developmental editor. I'm not sure if people know what a developmental editor.
[24:02] Tara: I don't. So I would love for you to share what that is.
[24:05] Margie Z. Fisher: Okay. A developmental editor lets you know at a high level and at a nitty gritty level what you need to change in your book to make it marketable. Okay. The problem is they don't tell you how to make those changes. So the kind of feedback you get is the plot isn't viable, or you need a timeline, or you need a stronger central conflict, or this character didn't say this yet, so you can't bring it up. That was good too. So it would get into super nitty gritty and also really big picture. So at that point, I had all the pieces of what I had to change, and I had no idea how to do it. I had never written fiction before, and I figured I wrote, I was a freelance writer so I could do this, but I couldn't. So that's when I started immersing myself into learning how to write fiction. And there's tons of resources. There's books, there's podcasts, there's online. I did all that and. And after about three months, based on the developmental editor's feedback and all the stuff I learned, I had added 20,000 words. I had changed characters, I added some new plot lines, I added a timeline because timelines are important in books. I really honed the central conflict together. I really nailed down the central conflict, which is really, really the hardest thing, I think, for almost any general fiction book. And then I just did a lot of tweaking and I also changed it from third person to first person. I'm still not sure why today, but I did. But I would not recommend that to anybody because it's horrifyingly mind numbing to have to go through every sentence and change it from they to I and change all the stuff around that. But in the second book, I'm going back to third person, which is much easier for many reasons. But anyway, after I did that, I spent another, say, six months trying to pitch different people now that I had fixed the book. And I ended up not sure how I found them, but I think my mom might have guided me to them. To a little tiny publisher of books for women. And they only publish books by women over 50. It's called Sibylline Press. They accepted the book under another title at the 11th hour. My mom and I had gone back and forth on about three different titles. The eleventh hour I said, I think we need to go with the Cabernet Club. They agreed. So that's what we're. We're with now. And the book just published in January. And now we have the ebook, print, and audiobook out. Who did the audiobook? Tanter Media. They're one of the partners with my publisher, and I think they did a good job. Yeah, that's great.
[27:09] Tara: Tina and I both read the book, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Part of me was a little afraid of, like, having you on and what if we didn't really like the book?
[27:21] Margie Z. Fisher: You know?
[27:22] Tara: But thankfully, that was not an issue. And so I can be open and honest about how much I enjoyed the book. Thank you.
[27:31] Margie Z. Fisher: Yeah.
[27:32] Tina: I mean, how much of the book just. In talking to you for these few minutes, how much of the book is based on your life or your mother's life? I mean, even just talking about Debbie and your mother, it seems like they are very, very similar. She's the main character. Main protagonist in the book.
[27:52] Margie Z. Fisher: Yeah, that's a very common question I get. And the part about someone moving from New England to South Florida to get a life is pretty autobiographical from my mom's perspective. A lot from there is different. So I can say that the place, Palmetto Point, does bear more than a passing resemblance to the place where she lived. And I won't mention the name here, but most people down here know what I'm talking about. There's a few places like that, but it's. Remember, it's fiction, so it's. It's kind of like it's the Schitt's Creek version of where she lived versus the actual. Right there. It was pretty nutty, but not like this. However, some of this stuff pretty much in fiction, like, you know, this. I. I'm pretty creative. Mom's pretty creative. But in Florida, especially, the Truth is stranger than fiction. It's likely that all of this stuff happened to somebody. It might not have been us, but.
[28:56] Tara: You heard about it or you.
[28:58] Margie Z. Fisher: I've heard about it. I've seen it, read about it. You know, this is not out of the realm of possibility. And people that live down here say it is so true to life. And it really is, especially some of the Wilder stuff. Some of the wilder stuff actually is true. First person true, but the character Debbie, there are some things that are definitely like my mom, but there are some things that aren't. So I would say again, you write what you know in fiction, but it's still fiction.
[29:31] Tina: Would you say parts of you are in the book or in the characters?
[29:35] Margie Z. Fisher: Yeah. Everyone asked me if I'm the helicopter daughter. I think my mom would agree that I'm the anti helicopter daughter. I might be a little bit of a helicopter parent, but. But let's stick with the helicopter daughter for a minute. Um, I. My mom was so independent. She basically told me, I mean, she would literally say to me, you have to have your own money and you can't rely on a man in a nice way, you know. So when I wanted to help her, she oftentimes was like, don't bother. My husband would have to force me. One time, I remember she. The headboard of her bed fell on her. She lived about 20 minutes from us. This is 20 years ago. And she's like, I'm just gonna go the hospital. I'm like, we're gonna come up. She's like, no, no, no, you don't need to. My husband's like, we're going with her. You know, like she didn't wanna put you out or whatever. So I guess I really wasn't a helicopter daughter in that sense. You know, in the last few years, maybe more so as I kind of sensed that, that she was really slowing down. And I personally think she had cancer for many years. In hindsight, knowing what I know now, so that may have been some of it intuitively, but yeah, other than that, what is the same is we both used to joke around a lot. So some of the funny stuff and some of the memories in there are true and some of the things that happened when I was growing up on a budget and some of those things are true, but a lot of that is fiction.
[31:11] Tara: What percentage of the current book that got published was similar to the original draft that you inherited?
[31:21] Margie Z. Fisher: Yeah, I went through the book because I knew I'd get this question. So 60% is my mom, 40% is me. Okay. Why not?
[31:32] Tara: Do you think she was working on that book you said for a long, long time? Like during and before the young adult books or just after?
[31:43] Margie Z. Fisher: No, after, definitely. Yeah.
[31:47] Tara: How old was your mom when she passed away?
[31:50] Margie Z. Fisher: She was 88. Oh, wow.
[31:53] Tara: And we've been talking about a lot of grief this season. How, how was that for you of just losing your best friend and your mother? What, what's that like?
[32:08] Margie Z. Fisher: It was brutal. Still is brutal. Right? Because grief doesn't have a gift. Yeah. But I actually feel like the book was a gift because I was able to, for three months right after she passed away, literally marinate in this project. When I tell you that I spent 12 hour days, I would wake up in the middle of the night, have a thought, run to my computer and work on this. Because I just was really focused, I wanted to do it. And there were many times that I would be crying because I'd read something, it would remind me of her or I'd think about something. Plus, I'm grieving. Things would happen. I'm doing stuff. But it gave me something to do that felt positive because as you know, when you're grieving, it's like you have no control. You have no control over things. So I felt like at least I had something to work towards. And then probably after I was done with it, I was, you know, trying to get it published, but it wasn't full time thing. That's when a lot of the grief sort of came up. Especially months later when everyone starts to disappear and not really support you. It's kind of standard. Right. But I kept in touch with some hospice grief group people and they were, you know, we would be in touch about things. So yeah, it, it's been a process. But I feel really lucky that I have this to share with her.
[33:46] Tina: Has it been hard though, with the success of the book and getting it published that you can't share that with her?
[33:55] Margie Z. Fisher: It is like I tell people I talk to my mom all the time, but it's a one way conversation. Okay. I mean, it's not the same as having a two way conversation. And she would be the one, the one top person I'd want to talk about every single little thing that's happening. Right. So it's very bittersweet. It really is.
[34:19] Tara: Part of me wonders and tell me if I'm wrong, like having the book also gave you something to do, but also was related to your mom. So in a way, do you think that helped you process or start processing some grief?
[34:36] Margie Z. Fisher: Absolutely, yeah. And, you know, and I consider it her book first. My publisher and I had a little debate about who would be the first name under the authorship. They wanted my name because I'm the living person. And I said, that's not okay, you know, And I actually referred back to the Guernsey Potato Peel and Literary Society.
[35:02] Tara: I love that book.
[35:04] Margie Z. Fisher: Similar situation where the niece finished the book for her aunt and I looked and saw who the authors were, and it was just the way I wanted it, you know, the original author first and then the niece. In my case, my mom first, then me. So we came to an agreement, but it's very much a joint thing. And I feel like when I'm talking about this, I'm also representing my mother and I'm. I'm representing both of us, but I'm also carrying the torch of the message, which is all about empowered aging, you know, living your best life and all that kind of thing. So we're both doing it. I'm just the messenger right now.
[35:43] Tara: For your mom, you said she was the inspiration around empowered living as you get older. How did she do that? Or what did you see her around her 50s? And what changed?
[36:01] Margie Z. Fisher: She had. She'd never gone to college that she had in common with Debbie for different reasons. And she also had been a legal secretary and through different parts of her life. Some of the things are fiction in the book. She had been writing all throughout her life. But so around 50, she literally created a job. She created a publication and a job through the city of New Bedford, where she was the editor and creator of a newspaper for senior citizens, still exists today, and was taken over by one of the Council on Agings in the area. But she created that. And then she rode that way for probably 20 plus years. And then at night when she did that during the day, at night she wrote her young adult novel. So. And I was at college at the time, so first of all, I still don't know how she did it, because I think about her working full time, writing, and then at night writing a book. And that's a role model to me. Cause I can't do that. Like, I'm very impressed. But her work ethic, she was always a hard worker. Her work ethic impressed me. She also was really great about staying in touch with people, family, friends. And she was the ringleader. She would come up with things to do and she was very frugal because she had to be, but she would find ways to have fun without spending a lot of money. I mean, she just. She used to Send me quarterly financial statements. So she didn't have a lot of money, but at one point, she invested in I bonds, which was unusual, like, 30 years ago, but nowadays it was really smart because now they were worth a lot. And literally she would type out every single bond and send it to me quarterly because she kept saying when she died, she didn't want any of this to get lost, you know, so she was like, she had it pretty together, you know, someone who didn't have, like, a big educational background or whatever. She was a student of life and really was a great role model. Very nice. Yeah.
[38:12] Tina: I mean, she was a writer, and you're obviously a writer. Are you a reader?
[38:18] Margie Z. Fisher: I am a reader, yeah. We're both readers, and we love to share novel ideas and, you know, we talked about books a lot and that kind of thing. Absolutely has.
[38:29] Tina: Now that you've written fiction, does it change the way you read fiction?
[38:34] Margie Z. Fisher: Absolutely. And also the way I look at TV shows, and it's really frustrating because my husband and I will usually watch, like, an hour or two of TV at night. Sorry if that's bad, universe. Anyway, when we're doing. I'm like, that story arc is just not legit. You know, I was saying that there's something on Yellowstone. Have you ever watched Yellowstone?
[39:01] Tara: I've heard about it, but I haven't watched it.
[39:03] Margie Z. Fisher: Yeah, right. We finally got Peacock, and there was something in there. It was like a big secret. And I'm not going to tell you what it is and spoil it for you, but I said, you know, here's the problem with that. It's X, Y, and Z. I'm like, it's not that realistic. And I can hear him groaning like, okay, that's true. But I didn't really need to hear that. So now I'm really particular about all the things. Plus, I recently taught a webinar for AARP on how to write a novel.
[39:33] Tara: Oh, I want to check that out.
[39:35] Margie Z. Fisher: Yeah. So I basically went through all this in detail. So there's a. There's a structure to a novel. There's, like, some background, but there's something called an inciting incident where you have to have something that changes everything. Then you have, like, rising action and stakes and all kinds of different conflicts and this and that and ultimately a conclusion. But there is a story structure when people do it well. There's certain TV shows and books that do it really well, and there's some that don't. But, yeah, I try not to just. I try not to think about that. But you can't help it once you're in that moment.
[40:10] Tara: Yeah, once you know it, it's hard to not see it. Yeah, exactly. Imagine I would love to hear what you did and how you shifted from your PR agency to freelance. What was that like for you and how did you do that?
[40:30] Margie Z. Fisher: Okay, so my mom helped me with that too. Okay, so first of all, my mom was my first and best editor. Okay? She was self taught and I was self taught because she didn't go to college. I went to college, but I had a finance degree in an mba and I didn't take a single English class because I placed out of them, which should have made me think about maybe my major. But okay, yeah, I was least out of them.
[40:58] Tara: Because you were such a reader, I assume when you were younger.
[41:01] Margie Z. Fisher: I was supposed to be a writer, actually, but I didn't. I wanted to go the business route and not have to be financially, have a difficult financial life like my mom. But anyway, the point is that, yes, so my mom was my editor, so that helped. In the PR business, I always had to write something, right? Even if it was just a press release or that kind of thing. So I would, I did some writing. It wasn't brand new to me, but I had never really felt like I had the life experience that really was required to be a writer. I know many people don't feel that way, but I feel like the best writers are people over 50 because you're not only full of knowledge from what you've picked up around the world, but you have life experience that really helps you inform what you're going to write about. So I had never really felt ready. It was kind of a crazy thing. But I like 50 shifted for me. I felt ready to do it. So I was confident and I knew how to get business at the time, right, because I had had a business. So unlike many other writers who really don't like to market or find business, they'd rather just write. I was the opposite. I was a marketer first and I was there to get business. So this was right around the pandemic is when I started and I was on Twitter a lot and for some reason people would post different opportunities and I would just be very aggressive about it. And I'm not really sure how I got them. But like I said, this is for.
[42:45] Tara: The freelance, like this is my freedom.
[42:48] Margie Z. Fisher: So like for Business Insider and then a lot for Business Insider and for a lot of health places. So yeah, I mean, I had written about business, I had a business and I also end up writing a lot about fitness because I had done my triathlons for like Livestrong and triathlon and that kind of thing. So I got a few clips, then started using them to get things like Parade and the New York Times and aarp. Just, you know, persistence. I had a PR business, so I knew the value of persistence. Right. That I was pretty good at and I'm a pretty good writer. So, you know, I think that and the persistence worked well and, you know.
[43:31] Tara: Went from there with the PR business. Did you have employees? How big was it?
[43:37] Margie Z. Fisher: No. Over the years I had, but at this point, and I don't know if anyone does it any other way nowadays I use contractors.
[43:44] Tara: Yeah. Okay. And how much were you working with the PR business and then, you know, shifting to the freelance.
[43:56] Margie Z. Fisher: Would you.
[43:57] Tara: Is your quality of life different? It's the same.
[44:00] Margie Z. Fisher: Oh, I have a totally different quality of life in freelancing. I have deadlines. Okay. But I'm pretty good about managing those deadlines. They're usually not like pr, which is yesterday. You know, literally like it would always be yesterday. They'd want something done right. So I would be basically at the beck and call of clients and or media outlets. So that wasn't as good of a quality life. My quality of life now is much better. Plus after 50, I decided to prioritize my health first thing. So number one goal is fitness in the morning. And I rotate. I have a pretty strict schedule. So Monday, Wednesday and Friday I do weight training at the gym and then I play pickleball. Then on Tuesday and Thursday I run and then on Saturday I do a really big bike ride and Sunday I take off. Nice. Yeah. So it's flexible a little bit when I need to be, but it's, it's pretty standard.
[45:02] Tara: You have a schedule. Do you have friends you do it with or is it primarily on your own?
[45:09] Margie Z. Fisher: Yeah, pickleball. I definitely have friends. I do it with different groups of people and it's very social. I have been a part of biking clubs, but they start at 7:30 in the morning. That's when they start the ride. So I decided on Saturday. That's not when I want to get up. So I go by myself. Even though people are scared for me, that's okay. That's their choice. And then running I do on my own, but I, I usually work my schedule around. I usually try and do some work first and then my fitness is my reward. So then. And then it also clears my mind. So then I do like work fitness work and then, you know, ongoing from there.
[45:48] Tara: Is your husband still working?
[45:51] Margie Z. Fisher: Yeah, yeah. Okay. Still working. And he's going to be working till I turn 65 because he carries the insurance, which I'm very lucky about. Yes.
[46:01] Tina: Did he develop fitness goals like you did? Do you share any of them?
[46:08] Margie Z. Fisher: We both played pickleball. And in fact, my mother suggested to him that he become certified as a pickleball instructor, which he did and which he does part time. And also in the summer, he's a pickleball director at a camp up north. So he's like a pickleball addict, like we both are. He got me into cycling years ago. He isn't as lucky as me because his schedule is not as flexible as mine. Right. But when he can, pickleball and cycling are usually his go to. And we talk about stuff all the time, so it's good.
[46:50] Tara: Have you talked about what you both want after you turn 65?
[46:57] Margie Z. Fisher: Mm.
[46:59] Tara: What does that look like?
[47:00] Margie Z. Fisher: He, I think, would like to be a part time pickleball instructor. So this was his way of sort of getting into that now. And I mean, he's a teacher anyway, so he's. And he's a good player, so he's really kind of a natural. The good thing about what I do is I'm planning on writing. I'm actually at work on book number two for this, and I have book three also planned. So between this and the writing, as you know, in. In people that are published by my publisher, they're women in their 80s. So the good thing about writing, as long as, please God, I have my faculties and ability to do all this, I can do that forever. There's no reason I have to retire, which, you know, again, unretire is probably the better word. But just living retirement age the way you want to. So, yeah, I think that's the way it'll go and travel and that kind of thing.
[47:57] Tina: So when you talk about books number two and three, there'll be sequels to the Cabernet Club. So it'll be the same characters and the same setting.
[48:07] Margie Z. Fisher: People ask me that. And the word sequel, kind of. So I'll tell you for book two, because I've outlined it. Book one was basically Debbie's story with the other characters that were in the Cabernet Club part of that story. Book two, I'm expanding on each of those characters because they each are trying to get through a major block in their lives. I'll just say that and then we'll learn more about Laurie, the daughter and her family. And some other things. These are all things people have asked me about. But I had thought the first book was a one and done project because, you know, I made that promise. But I kept thinking of. I'm like, well, but then what about this with the character? What about that? You know, what if this happened? And. But we didn't really resolve that. So there is some stuff that is unresolved in the first book for a reason, and those will be resolved and more in the second book. And then I know how the second's gonna end, which leads to the third book. So that's where we are and are the.
[49:16] Tina: Do you have a timeline on when you think these will be published or goals on when you hope they'll be published?
[49:23] Margie Z. Fisher: Yeah, I've been thinking about that. My goal would be probably fall 2026, because I really have to write. And I think this is going to be longer than the first book. So based on the word count and how much I can do per day, along with my other writing that I still do, that's what I think I can get done.
[49:46] Tara: So book two and three, are those the other members of the Cabernet Club or. Not necessarily.
[49:53] Margie Z. Fisher: They will all be in there. So it'll be the three plus K who's the honorary member. Yes. Okay.
[50:00] Tina: And I have to ask. I'm sorry, did you have a situation similar to a K in your life?
[50:09] Margie Z. Fisher: That's so funny. Everyone asked that. These are good questions, as far as I know. No. Yeah, but we've heard of some of those things like the. The anti Semite and all that kind of stuff. My mother experienced some of that. We're Jewish and so some of the things like that her dad did and stuff was all true. And those people probably existed in some way, shape or form, but not exactly that way.
[50:37] Tina: And I should explain that Kay in the book is a character that went to high school with Debbie and they randomly run into each other down in Florida and develop a relationship. So, yeah, that's a little bit of backstory, I guess. For those who are interested, how much.
[50:58] Tara: Research did you have to do for the book? It sounds like you did a lot of research in trying to learn how to write fiction, but was there other type of research that you did?
[51:09] Margie Z. Fisher: There was, actually. First of all, I had to update it because some of the references were. Had not been updated. They were from when she wrote it a while back. So I really had to update a lot of things. Like there weren't cell phones in this book. Okay. So yeah, so we had to get up to date. I had to change a lot of the references to like, movie stars and songs. I changed a lot of the names in the book because I actually researched names from a particular era to make sure I got it. And I researched. I'm a researcher, so I would. I researched in the Portuguese parts of it. I grew up. The town I lived in was almost all Portuguese except for us and a few people. But I kept having to. There are different spellings and different things. So I spent a lot of time doing that. I'm really very particular about that. So, yeah, I just wanted it to be really polished. I'm sure there's still, you know, errors. I'm sure. But yeah, I wanted it to be really as clean. And this is part of the journalism and freelance writing part, you know, I wanted everything to be as clean and tight and real as possible.
[52:28] Tara: We're almost out of time, which I can't believe. But what advice do you have for those of us in the messy middlescence and trying to navigate this liminal space?
[52:43] Margie Z. Fisher: Well, you mentioned the quote I have in the beginning of the book. It is never too late to be who you might have been. I think that's one way to look at it. The Cabernet Club's motto that I came up with was, why can't the rest of your life be the best of your life? It's the same message that you're not over the hill in your middle essence. It's really the beginning of self actualization. I believe this is the time when all the stuff you had to do in life is gone or pretty much gone. You've checked all the boxes. You had relationships, maybe kids, maybe jobs, whatever. Now you can actually focus on yourself and what makes you happy. And I think that's something that we should all be ready to embrace. No matter if we don't have a lot of money, if we have ailments. You can still get through all that. Just be open to the possibilities.
[53:48] Tara: That was beautifully put.
[53:50] Tina: Yeah, wonderfully put.
[53:52] Tara: I'm curious. It sounded like you knew you wanted to be a writer, but you did not pursue that because you were worried financially or for whatever, your future. Is that true?
[54:08] Margie Z. Fisher: Somewhat. Yeah. I mean, I. I was on my school newspaper. I wrote for the literary journal. I wrote poems. You know, I was a big reader. I was a good writer. But I also like business. And. Yeah, I. I don't know how much influence my mom had on me. Honestly, I. I was young and I probably wasn't paying much attention then. Anyway, she had had a very tough time financially growing up. I did, you know, as well. So I. I knew the writing life at that time wasn't really great in my life now it's perfect because I'm in a different financial stage. You know, I made my money, I saved a lot of money, and now it's not as critical for me right now that I'm over 50. But, yeah, when you're young and you're striving and you're doing things, writing is a tricky profession, especially today, so. But yeah, so I don't regret anything. I think we all have a path to go on for whatever reason, and that's what this was.
[55:12] Tara: Do you have a website? Do you have, I mean, places you would love people to check out your book and learn more about you?
[55:22] Margie Z. Fisher: Yes. So my website is my name. It's Margie. M A R G, I, E, middle initial Z. Like zebrafisher, F I, S H E R dot com. My website has everything in terms of where people can buy my book. If you go to my website, there's a link there, of course, or it's on most online platforms, including Amazon, of course. Amazon has the ebook and the audiobook and the print book. And if people read the book and like it, I'm sure most people know this, but if you can leave a review, that helps me, helps my publisher want to keep publishing me, helps people want to buy it. So that's good, too. Great.
[56:08] Tara: Well, thank you again, Margie. This was a true joy. I wish you the best because I thoroughly enjoyed the book and I feel like it deserves for many people to read it. And the themes around finding your best life as you get older definitely stood out to me.
[56:28] Margie Z. Fisher: Yeah.
[56:28] Tina: And we look forward to the next ones.
[56:32] Margie Z. Fisher: So thank you. Thank you.
[56:35] Tara: Today's recommendation is something different. We asked Margie to give us a few books that both she and her mom, Rhona S. Zabel, loved and enjoyed. She is a huge reader and she said her and her mom talked about books all the time. The three books she gave us as recommendations were Pachinko by Min Jin Lee. The second was Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson. And the third was A Man Called of by Frederick Backman. These books and links to the books will also be in our show notes, but Tina and I thought it would be fun to get a recommendation from someone besides us. And we're always looking for new book recommendations, so we were excited to hear some of these. One of them I've read, but two of them. I have not, but I think I have heard of all three and heard great things. I hope you'll give them a try. Thanks.
[57:46] Tina: For show notes and other information about our podcast, please visit our website Messy Middlescence. If you enjoyed listening, please help spread the word about our podcast by sending a link to a family member or friend. And don't forget to leave a positive rating or review for us. As always, we hope you will return for more.
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Our recommendation this week (besides reading The Cabernet Club) is three books that Margie Zable Fisher and her mother, Rona S. Zable loved and enjoyed.
Pachinko by Min Jin Lee
Major Pettigrew’s Last Stand by Helen Simonson
A Man Called Ove by Fredrik Backman
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Margie Zable Fisher is the co-author (along with her late mother) of The Cabernet Club, published by Sibylline Press on January 31, 2025.
Completing and publishing the novel fulfilled a promise Margie made to her mother right before she passed away.
Margie is a wife and mother, loves Cabernet and the pool, and competed in her first triathlon after age 50. She plays pickleball several times a week and considers it a good day if she achieves genius status playing The New York Times Spelling Bee. She and her family live in Florida.
Before becoming a full-time writer and author after age 50, Margie owned a P.R. agency for 20 years. Her articles have been published in the New York Times, AARP, Fortune, Next Avenue, and more. She runs a community for women over 50 on Facebook (The 50-Year-Old Mermaid).
You can learn more about Margie and The Cabernet Club at https://margiezfisher.com/.