7. Parenting Up with Alan Harkness
“How do you manage older people with dignity and love and try to find a way to keep everybody in the right place? It’s tough.... It’s hard to prepare for something that you don’t know exactly what it’s going to be.”
This episode is part 2 of our conversation with Alan Harkness. It delves deep into difficult aspects of middlescence, particularly the challenges of caring for aging parents and the loss of a parent. Alan shares his personal experiences of moving his disabled mother into his home after his father's passing and the subsequent decision to transition her to an assisted living facility. He discusses the emotional strains and the importance of setting boundaries to protect his own well-being and maintain a healthy relationship with his spouse. Alan talks about the stress and emotional burden of managing his mother's health issues while trying to balance his marriage, parenting, and work responsibilities. He shares valuable lessons and advice for those going through similar situations, stressing the importance of asking for help, proactive estate planning, and taking care of oneself amidst the demands of middlescence.
At the end of the interview, we tried something new with Tina and I discussing the interview and what stood out for each of us. We then present a poem, "The Happiest Day" by Linda Pastan which beautifully articulates the feeling of knowing yet not believing that your parents will die.
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[00:22] Christina Donovan: Are you between the ages of 40 and 60? Do you feel the need for change in your life but are not sure why or when or how? Do you feel a pressure of running out of time? Do you spend most of your time doing things that are not important to you anymore? These are all symptoms or characteristics of middlescence. And this is our podcast, Messy Middlescence.
Well, welcome to the second part of our interview with our brother in law, Alan Harkness. We hope you enjoyed getting to know Alan in the first part, and in the second part, we dive deep into some of the most difficult aspects of adolescence, the care of aging parents and the loss of a parent. So here's part two with Alan Harkness.
Tara Bansal: What would you say are some of the major changes of the past ten years that you've been through, and anything you'd like to share for those going through that during?
Alan Harkness: Personally, personally, professionally? Both either? Yeah, personally, we moved here. I had a fifth grader, a first grader, and a preschooler, and I've gotten to watch my kids grow up and thrive here, and that's just been fantastic. I've lost both my parents in the last ten years, and that was harder than I thought it would be. Ours is a case study for how not to do all of that. My dad passed and my mom was disabled. He was her primary caregiver, and I had two weeks to move her down here and get the house ready for. We bought this house knowing that one of our four parents might end up living with us. So there's an in law suite in a bathroom, and it worked out pretty well. But that first couple of weeks after my dad died and getting my mom down here was just unbelievably stressful. For context, my family had been on this property for 150 years, and neither my father nor his father before whom who owned the house, really cleaned up. My brother came for a while, and we had to get rid of a lot of stuff. I moved as much as I thought I could squeeze into my house. That was important to me. David didn't want anything to take to the Pacific Northwest, so he didn't take anything to Oregon. And trying to manage all that remotely was hard. And giving up the family property that been in the family for so long, that was just really hard. And then having mom here for six and a half years and being her primary caregiver, she needed a little help, and it got to be more help, and then it got to be too much that she needed. And to keep my marriage intact, we ended up moving my mom to an assisted living place and also to keep my sanity. It made things easier at home. She was there for a year before she passed and had just so many health issues, and I couldn't get over all the doctor's appointments and varying kinds of specialties. It was really tough. And I knew I'd been managing this for her for a while. When went to an infectious disease doctor to Emory in Atlanta, he said because I had been explaining all the context, the backstory for my mom, for him. He's like, Are you in medicine? No, I'm married to a medical librarian, and I've been trying to be a good caregiver for my mom, and it's been hard. And he could not have shown more empathy at the time. Losing her was hard, but my dad died. We got rid of the home place and scaled down and all of that, and I've been managing. My mom had some things set up like you're supposed to, but some things not. And so we've had to go through probate and all the things you have to do as an adult, you don't know about parenting up. And it's been a challenge. It's just been a real challenge. And I haven't wanted to sacrifice my relationship with Amy or the kids or work. And you can't do it all, so you have to pick and choose. And for a while, I just was spending so much time on my mom. So those things are transformational both at work. But know, Eric got married last year, and wonderful woman he's married to, and they have a great life. And Emily left for college, and the life goes on. And the question is, are you marking time? Are you on the treadmill with it, or are you active part of it and trying to figure out how to balance all that? You got to do what you got to do. I have a good team at home, and I have a good team at work, and I could not have done any of this without so many supports. It's been hard. A lot of people of faith will say that God only gives you as much as you can handle. I feel like that's really been tested in the last
Christina Donovan: I mean, just even listening to that string of events, eric's marriage, Emily starting school, like your mom's health problems and then your mom passing mean, how how do you handle all those emotional burdens? Do you feel like any of those got short shifted in the scheme of things? Like some of the happy things weren't as happy or maybe you couldn't necessarily grieve or care for?
Alan Harkness: Yeah, my brother always he's like, you need to ask for more help. I'm like, well, you're on the other side of the country. There's only so much I can do. But it's like the parable of the frog in the pot of water. You don't realize the temperature just keeps getting turned up and turned up and turned up. The other thing I will say is I never realized how much capacity I had. I tell my kids that when they were in college, like Eric sees it now, you don't realize how much time you have and what you can do when you have to. And so, yeah. Have I slept enough? No. Have I exercised? Because it's kept me from losing my mind. It's a lot of challenges, but I've discovered that the well is deep and I have a lot of capacity to handle all the things we went through COVID at work and trying to manage that and some horrible HR problems all at the same time. No air conditioning was out and it was just a lot to manage. But you know what kept going got good members of my team here at work and at home. And you keep going because you have to. I just did it because I had to. I don't think I'm special. I had to in a lot of capacity.
Christina Donovan: I mean, looking back, let's just even say on the last year or two, what do you think 20 years from now is going to stand out from this time?
Alan Harkness: How little I did for myself? Yeah, because you all know Amy, but Amy is the original martyr mom, and she will sacrifice herself to a great degree to make sure her family is functioning and doing what they need and that the kids have the cookies to take to school and all of those things. So I have this role model at home. I knew years ago I could never match that, so I never tried. You can't be better at Amy at those things, so just accept that and move on and realize she's going to want to sacrifice more of herself than I can for me. And I'm still doing the best I can. And it's been enough, but, yeah, it's just the last several years have been hard. Looking back 20 years, I think I'll realize, man, you were juggling a lot of stuff, buddy. Maybe it's age and stage, maybe it's maturity. I don't know. Maybe I've been lucky. Maybe God's been smiling down on me and I haven't noticed. I don't know. You just do what you have to do and I worry about that for y'all's parents when it comes time to have to deal with some of these hard decisions and hard times, because it never rolls out the way it's supposed to. Yeah.
How do you even define it's supposed to? Yeah. In your mind, what it's supposed to? So, yeah, you do what you got of what words of wisdom or what lessons do you feel stand out during this time?
Alan Harkness: I love my wife. I wouldn't trade her for the world. I want us to work on our relationship more. It's a challenge, and I'm not being critical of her in that way, but she puts us last. And I would recommend people look at those relationships and look at those stronger. I think asking for help sooner, I think we could have asked for help with the kids during the hardest, darkest times with my mom, and no one would have hesitated to help, whether it's family members or friends, all that sort of thing. Our family is bad about asking for help and then doing all those very boring dry preparations legally and financially that you're supposed to do to make life easier for you. Knowing what we've gone through with my dad and my mom, I just found out yesterday I've got to find my dad's death certificate and send it to another one of these brokers. We will have all this lined up and buttoned up for our kids so they don't have to deal with this because ODS are nobody's staying in Columbus. They're going to go to the Four Winds, kind of like you guys did when you left home, or your parents end up moving and all that needs to be taken care of, and I can't recommend that enough for people. You always put it off, and I've learned my lesson. I hope other people will too. And so even on that, this is one of my I know it's like jugular. I need to talk to you about some things anyway on the side, but to do that is it just talking to an estate attorney or what do you wish you had done to get the financial and legal affairs organized? Like, what words of advice do you have? My mom quit work to have me. Right. But she was an only child, and she inherited money from her parents, and she ended up getting a finance degree so that she could learn how to manage that money. And that became her. She was a stay at home mom, and that became her vocation for the next 30 plus years. She did really well, all things considered. Most people don't do what she tried to do financially. I made her go get an update to her will and power of attorney a few years ago, and I'm so glad that we did. Made her think about who does she want to give to? What is her legacy? How does she want that to happen? She really wanted to not lose control of things financial, and I wish I had insisted that she set up her beneficiaries or set up a living trust. I could be a commercial for that.
Tara Bansal: We may take you up on that. Or I do a whole episode on that.
Alan Harkness: Totally. I wish we had done a lot more of that in advance. I didn't want her to not feel like she was in control. I was fortunate that she put my name on several of her accounts, that I could handle her affairs. And for the last year or so, I was kind of doing 90% of that. She didn't want to let go of the finance part even in the last month before she died. I know David came down to visit, and my mom was losing her ability to be articulate. And she kept saying to just, I want to fix the numbers. I want to fix the numbers. And we couldn't figure it out. And figure it out. Finally, David realized she was talking about getting her financial stuff in order, and she wanted to make sure the kids would get their inheritance and that David and I would be cared for in that way. And so to her dying day, she wanted to make sure she was providing for her family. Sorry, don't get so no, that's it's still fresh. It's still yeah. Yeah. Some of it's still a little raw, but that's what love is. Yeah. I have nothing but admiration for her in her life. She had an abusive father. She married the first guy who came along who showed interest in her. She wanted to work, but where she worked made her quit when she was pregnant because of the times. And she was obstinate and stuck to doing what she thought was important. And most of us don't always get to live our lives that way. And God, she got to it sounded to me like you I didn't mean this to be a therapy session. Sorry. I don't know.
Tara Bansal: I feel like I just really appreciate you being so open and vulnerable.
Christina Donovan: Oh, yeah. I have a quick question, Alan. Would you say living with your mother in the last few years of her life or her living with your family, did that help or hurt your relationship overall
Alan Harkness: with her or with Amy?
Christina Donovan: With her. With your mother?
Alan Harkness: She never wanted to be a burden, but she also was very routine based. And so you talk about transactional. Again, it became so much about the daily life sort of thing that we and another reason we put her in assisted living is that it wasn't about the relationship. It was just about maintaining and getting through the days. Right. So I wish I had insisted. She just really wanted to be with us. She did not want to go to assisted living, but when she got there, she built friendships. She missed all that from where she lived in Henry County, and she did on her terms. But I really think she would have been happier if she'd had more time for. So it made it hard for us because we didn't want to push her out, but it just became too much. And Amy I could tell it was wearing Amy down because Amy's at home during the day. She teleworks, so she was there with my mom, and she would have to make her lunch every day, and she's shopping or whatever else she might be doing or dealing stuff with her job. And we always had to make sure know Grandma was fed. It's not like having a pet, but it was sort of like having a pet. And again, it was transactional, not relational. And I think that was hard. And I regret not having as a close relationship as I had hoped for the last several years, did I get resentful? Maybe a little. Maybe I was too close to it and couldn't see it. Resentful of what? The sacrifices we need to make in order to keep her going and keep her happy.
Tara Bansal: So in hindsight, do you feel like you wish she had gone to the assisted living sooner? Do you think that would have been better?
Alan Harkness: Yeah, I think so. I think that would have been better for all of us. The kids. When she first moved in, it was kind of nice. She would sit and listen to them and they would talk about all their things and it's all that generational stuff that you read about. It's supposed to be really healthy to have grandparents in the household. I think that worked really well for the first several years. But then towards the end, the kids love their grandma, but it somehow just wasn't the same. I think it just became so much to manage. My mom remembered living in the same building as her grandparents and being able to go up down to the first floor and visit her grandparents in St. Louis. So she had fond memories of that. And I think she wanted that for her with her kids, her grandchildren. But her physical health wouldn't allow her to have that same kind of connection. She always wanted to be with the kids and loved them and were around them. My parents were always great about showing up for events and all that sort of thing. But eventually her health got in the way and it just became hard. And I saw the kids getting hardened to it towards the end.
Christina Donovan: What does that mean?
Alan Harkness: I just think they became there's never a question that they love their grandma, but there was no relationship building going on anymore for any of us.
Tara Bansal: I appreciate you sharing that. It almost sounds like it wasn't a decision to bring her into your home. Or was that a decision?
Alan Harkness: Well, we had no other. Just my dad died and we were so focused on his health and everything towards the end and like, well, Amy and I both looked at each other. I guess we're moving into our house because there was no other option on the table. She didn't want to go to any kind of home and we had room in our house, so I guess we're moving her to Columbus. It was like when Amy and I got married, honestly, it was like, oh, yeah, this is what we're doing. And we just went and did it. So I think having kids or getting married or having a parent move in with you, I think it's just like jumping in the deep of the pool and you just go and do the thing, figure it out. Yeah. And Amy's been she couldn't have been a better daughter in law through all that. Having her mother in law in the house with her, who know needs.
Tara Bansal: But it sounds like it was hard on your relationship with you and Amy?
Alan Harkness: It's hard on my relationship my mom. It's hard on my relationship with Amy. And I realized it was becoming increasingly difficult for myself, and I'm like, all right, this is what we got to do. So we started making her look at assisted living places under the guise of someday, maybe if kind of whatever. And then pretty soon it was, yeah, this is what we're doing, mom. She knew she didn't have a choice.
Tara Bansal: How long was that process from when you started to look at them till when she moved? In?
Alan Harkness: About three months.
Tara Bansal: Okay. And would you say she was dragging her heels in?
Alan Harkness: Yeah. How much she didn't want to do it obvious she didn't want to do it. And she was a stubborn woman. You just couldn't make her do anything she didn't want to do. But I'm like, mom, this is what we have to do. I need this. And she's like, okay, that must have been really hard. And, I mean, it sounds like ultimately it was the right decision. I mean, she said she was happier, but while that was going on, that must have been really emotionally difficult. It was very stressful. And emotionally, I think for some of us, we feel like if we're not able to do the thing that we're trying to do, that somehow you're failing. And it's not about failing. It's about making sure that you have that mask on your face on the plane so that you can put a mask on somebody else's face. And self preservation and keeping yourself sane and keeping the relationships at home. First and foremost, it was tough. All these tough decisions.
Christina Donovan: Right. Is this how you viewed middle age would be?
Alan Harkness: I never thought I'd make it past the age of, like, 32, so all of this has been a surprise. I have always been really flexible, and I think that has benefited me, because whatever comes, I'll swing at it, I'll give it a shot. And you don't know how your parents will go, and you don't know how you're going to manage. But one of the things I've learned in maturity is that I trust that I'll be able to pull it off. Whatever it is, I'll be able to pull it off. No, I had no preconceived notions of what all this was going to be like because people don't talk about this sort of thing. How do you manage older people with dignity and love and try to find a way to keep everybody in the right place? It's tough. You don't find out what's going to happen when you have kids, but you also don't realize that I've said it before, parent up and to your like. It's hard to prepare for something that you don't know exactly what it's going to be. You know, in our house, Amy does all the short term planning, but I do all the long term planning because she just can't or won't or doesn't think about it. And I'm very bad at the short term stuff, so we really compliment each other really well on that. And sometimes we have to check in with each other, like, okay, we're doing this thing for this long term reason. She'll go like, okay. And she's, don't forget about the thing that you've got to do that you forgot to do. In that way, we complement each other well relationship wise. I've been very lucky in my choice of spouses in that regard.
Christina Donovan: How did your parents do planning?
Alan Harkness: So my dad lived for the moment. He wanted to spend every dollar he had, any given time, because tomorrow we may die. So he was very carefree about that. My mom controlled her money and controlled the finances for the household. She let him do most of what he wanted to do, but then when it came to her money, it was separate, and she wouldn't let him touch it. And she was in control of that, so I had that role model.
Christina Donovan: Coming up, what would you say, or are you struggling with anything right now? Alan Harkness: Sleep. Sleep.
Tara Bansal: How long has that been?
Alan Harkness: Something about turning 50 and having to get up and go to the bathroom in the middle of the night. But also, I would say for the last year or two. And that's probably part of this related to stuff with my mom is many times when I wake up, my brain engages and I can go to sleep at the drop of the head. I could take a nap on the floor right here, right now if I wanted to. But staying asleep has been a challenge, and so it's not unusual to wake up earlier than my usual wake up times and like, oh, ****, I think this is it. I think I'm awake and not be able to go back to sleep.
Tara Bansal: Do you do anything when you can't sleep, or what do you generally do?
Alan Harkness: Well, for me, making sure I'm getting the exercise in it makes me tired. God knows I have long days, so there should be no reason I can't sleep by the third night. I will take a melatonin. Okay. But I really have always resisted outside medication, so I trying to handle things the best way I can. So I keep thinking this is a phase, but I also recognize maybe I'm just in a point in my life where I just don't need as much sleep. I feel like I do, but just haven't been getting it. That's a challenge because then you still have to go and do all the things the next day.
Tara Bansal: Does the melatonin help?
Alan Harkness: What it does is when I wake up at two or three, you go to the bathroom like most people, I feel like I'm at the bottom of a pool, and it makes it easier to go back to sleep again. I feel like I'm still kind of submerged a little bit.
Tara Bansal: So you take the melatonin before you go to sleep?
Alan Harkness: Yeah, before I go to sleep.
Tara Bansal: Not when you wake up, but to stay asleep.
Alan Harkness: No, because then I think that would mess me up. Too late.
Tara Bansal: Yeah, that's what I wondered. Okay.
Alan Harkness: Everybody finds what works for them. It may not be the right method. I don't drink, so I don't have those sorts of artificial help, but everybody finds what works for them.
Tara Bansal: If money was not an issue, what would you love to do?
Alan Harkness: I don't know. I see all these charities here locally that I would love to do more for, and one of my long term goals is trying to figure out what to do with my inheritance from my mom and how that fits. I have to be busy. I have to have things to do, so I don't know. I really don't know the answer to that. We always play the what if about the lottery and never goes anywhere, but it's an interesting dilemma. I don't know. You don't know? I there's a part of me, you know, if I had enough disposable income, I'd probably get a couple really cool cars because I really like cars and never really allowed myself to have the cool cars. But I'd need to have a lot of money because it needs to be a small percentage of that disposable income. Just fun, more travel. Amy and I are going to travel more. I really had fun traveling with Eric and travel with him only back in March and just I want to get out more. I have this wanderlust that my father and his father had. I know it's in me, I know it's in my brother and want to see more of the world get those experiences, and I want my kids to have that too. So it gets expensive fast.
Christina Donovan: Are there any changes right now you want to make in your life?
Alan Harkness: I'd like to eat a little bit less, a little more healthy. I'm not at my ideal weight. I'm not heavy, but nobody's ever happy with where they are in that regard. I think I would be happier, I think, if I lost maybe another ten or 15 and could keep it off. When I first started running, I dropped 25, like, right away. I'm like, this is great. And then the metabolism, because I was over 50, the metabolism reasserted itself, said, no, it isn't, and ended up putting most of that back on, but eating a little bit healthier, trying to do more of the right things for I need to live a long time so I can see these grandchildren. Right? Yeah.
Tara Bansal: What do you think of the word legacy?
Alan Harkness: Wow. I think it's really ephemeral. I think we like to think that we have a legacy or we'd like to build one, but it's fleeting to me.
Tara Bansal: That being said, though, Alan, do you think it's important to feel like you have a legacy or will have a legacy.
Alan Harkness: The way I've rationalized that with myself professionally and personally is I think you're planting trees. Trees don't last forever, but I think you're planting trees all the time. And a great example for the library is this building is 18 years old, but not a day goes by when I'm in the community, I don't hear people talking about the building that preceded it and how much people loved it. And I know that we're building the same kind of memories for people now, but we won't know about it for another 20 years. I may not be here, who knows? But people will remember this place fondly because it's an amazing facility. We do great things here. So I think that sort of mental model of planting trees so other people can take advantage of the shade is if there is a way to look at legacy, you do that as much as you can professionally. You pay it forward with other people, younger people who are on their way up. You plant trees with people, and then you do it at home. You do it with your own family, your kids, and you try to figure out how metaphorically plant those trees with them. I think if there's anything that lasts, it's good. And finding a way to make that happen is enough legacy for me.
Christina Donovan: Is it something you think about that you're intentional about?
Alan Harkness: No, it's always been professionally a part of my mental model as I've aged as a parent, thinking about that for the kids. But I'm looking at a finite time that I'm going to be here. Probably I could pass next year for all we know. But am I leaving the things I know? I've left this place better than I found it. And the question is, will I do it in all the areas that I want to do? And that's the price of being ambitious and bold and trying to do all kinds of interesting things. So that's the legacy is that the building that you build or the program that you put in place that makes a difference in people's lives? We do a lot for early childhood education here, and I keep trying to find other ways to do it, because if there's any trees that you want to plant, it's getting preschoolers ready for kindergarten so that they can function at grade level, because so many kids in this community don't. So professionally, we look at it that way, but also you look at it from home. And getting the kids to understand how to manage money and to manage relationships and to manage their time has great benefits long term. And I don't know that Amy and I always set the best example for those sorts of things, but try to model what you want to see in others, but also try to guide as you can. And then at the end of the. Day. You also have to recognize that people are going to be their consistent selves. You can nudge, but you can't hang people. Yeah, we're all different. Yeah, totally.
Tara Bansal: What lesson would you love for your children to know?
Alan Harkness: that they're good enough?
Tara Bansal: I love that
Alan Harkness: I think Amy and I haven't always set that example because we're so self deprecating a lot, or as I like to say, self defecating. It's, you know, you're stronger than you think, you're smarter than you think, you're more capable than you think. I dated someone years ago who said, there's nobody in that room that's any smarter than me. And I just love that idea that you can go in and do the thing. And we're our own worst enemies when it comes to our own success. And people are self defeating. They self sabotage a lot. I'd like for my kids to know, but there's only so much they can receive at the age and stage that they're in. Eric sees some wisdom these days because he's 32. Emily doesn't really realize how much time she has in her hands. Ian's focused on his girlfriend and violin and all the things that you should be focused on at that age, but you just try to drop little nuggets and suggestions as you can along the way.
Christina Donovan: How would you like to be remembered? Or what do you want to be remembered for?
Alan Harkness: My mental model for work is that I'm sitting here at work is that I take my work seriously, but I don't take myself seriously. Sense of humor, look at life a little more big picture objectively at home. I hope I'm remembered as a loving husband and father that did the best he could. That's what he had to work with. But other than that, I don't have any pretension that I'm some bigger thing than I am. I just want to make things better and contribute and stay curious. I love yeah, yeah. Y'all ask good questions.
Christina Donovan: Well, it's been super interesting listening to you, Alan. I've learned a lot.
Tara Bansal: If you have the time, and I don't know if you do, I'd love to hear just with your deadline or timeline, with things changing in 2029, how do you think you'll prepare for that? Or what do you hope you'll be doing after that? Do you have expectations or this vision of what?
Alan Harkness: So the first step is to set the goal and then work backwards from the goal. If the clock is ticking, I got to work backwards from then and make sure that I'm doing everything I think I want to get done at work and make sure my financial house is in order and the kids are being in a good place so that we can transition. I'll probably jump on Social Security, if it exists by then, as quickly as I can. I'm not going to wait. My dad only lived to be 73, 74. So that gives me what? Eleven years post retirement to live, and I want to make sure I'm squeezing every bit out of it. My grandfather, my dad's dad lived to be 96, so there's that potential. But setting goals and working backwards for making sure I'm pointing the right direction both here at home and at work for years. I'm trying to talk Amy into working full time so we'll have more in retirement to do that. I'm not going to do that. So it'll be interesting to see when I retire. If that's when she decides to hang it up or she wants to keep doing some part time stuff, it fulfills her, and I don't want to take that away from her by any, um I don't know, I'll start thinking about it more intentionally. And then, like I said, when Ian's graduated, I may try an adjunct class here and there and see if I like it. Both either at Columbus State University, which is here, or Columbus Technical College in between undergraduate and graduate school. I did a lot of substitute teacher during the day, and I worked library reference desk at night, so they're really long days to save money for grad school. And I ended up, by accident, taking over a remedial 10th grade English class. A woman went on maternity leave end of the school year. So I had the last three months of the school year. And I loved working with those 10th graders. It was just fun, and I made it fun, I made it interesting. And I like adult learners. I may dabble in that. I may see what that looks like, but working to that goal, I need to know that I'm transitioning into something else because I can't just sit around and not do something. I may do more with the food bank, for example. I just love what the food bank does. There's always people in need of food, and the logistics they deal with always impresses me. So I may reach out to those folks in Davao, I don't know. And there's time for travel and there's time for maybe not being so rushed, maybe getting some sleep. I would love for some sleep to come along with. Yeah.
Tara Bansal: Anything that you want to teach?
Alan Harkness: I don't know, part of the exploration, I guess. I think that would be part of the exploration. I think any English teacher I ever had would laugh in your face that they knew I would be teaching writing or composition or literature, but that's probably where I would go, probably the direction I would head in. They always need people who can help folks connect to the resources they have at the libraries, and I have some knowledge of that. Don't know. I like the idea of exploring and experimenting and trying some things on, see how it works. Yeah, I love the term trying some things on, and I think that is key.
Tara Bansal: Something that stood out to me is how goal oriented you are. And is that because during college it took you to create goals that you feel like that helped you then move forward? I guess I wonder where that came from and how long
Alan Harkness: I was lost. My first two years in college, I was just lost and I didn't have the maturity or the ability to pick myself up and figure it out. And I was grasping at straws. And then the library thing just really seemed to fit. So I've always consciously known that I've done better when I've had goals. But until that point in my life, I really had never set any particularly and then since then, that voice in the back of your head, you should yourself to death. I want to get married by, I want to have children by, all those kinds of things that sometimes we're successful at, sometimes we're not in our own minds. But I wanted a family. I wanted to have that enriching focus in my life and goals. You date the wrong people and you try to figure out how to make it work. One I end up going to therapy for because I kept trying to force the square peg in the wrong hole. And the therapist finally said, you know, maybe you just shouldn't try this relationship anymore. And I'm like, once she helped me give myself permission, I just started looking again and gosh, there's Amy. And then it all became clear to and professionally, just having some big picture, long term goals I think has been helpful. So you're working towards something, but on a daily basis, I really suck at it. I wish that was something I did better. My desk, if you could see it right now, you'd laugh at it. I focus on people and not the things. And so the things my house needs to be painted, the living room needs to be cleaned up, and things that matter on some level, but I'm more interested in the relationships than the stuff. And so I got to make sure I'm keep figuring out goals, just keep figuring them out. And I wish I had done that more. I wish I had more guidance with that early on, but it's been helpful as I've done it.
Christina Donovan: Is that something you teach your children or you work with your children on?
Alan Harkness: I try, but they're their own people. It's a challenge because again, you can't make be somebody who they aren't, but just remind them and help them with little ones, I think has been helpful. Yeah, I try. I don't know how successful I am. The proofs in the pudding. I know that Emily is having a similar college experience that I did the first two years. She really struggled, but she is now making friends and she seems to be thriving and enjoying her major. And she was telling us the other day about tooth identification because that's her jam. And I think I see the beginnings of her figuring it out and I remind her, focus on a goal and go work on it. But the end of the day, it's up to us individually to make that happen and whether or not you have enough self discipline to make it happen. My band director in elementary school would, if you didn't turn in things on time or whatever, would make you write an essay on self discipline over and over and over. Self discipline is doing what's expected you without being told and just trying to help. And I really now, looking back, appreciate that. But even that, to me, it's finding what works for mean.
Tara Bansal: Alan, you're very successful, and I think part of your success is your focus on relationships and being so intentional around that and hearing you talk about like you are more long term. But that's why everybody's different. Amy compliments you and being more short term focused. And, you know, that like Myers briggs like the big picture versus the detail oriented, how each of us have our strengths and have things we need to find someone else that can help us.
Alan Harkness: I didn't set out to find somebody who complimented me that well, but it was nice to discover that and affirm that over time as we learned each other. Wow. Giving yourself permission to be who you are and the strengths that you bring to the table, it does not necessarily fit in our society. And so everything doesn't fit everybody all the way. I'll tell a young librarian or one of my kids, I'll look at, either way. This is what worked for me. But I don't think this is what will work for you. You have to figure out what works for you. And that process of self discovery and all is painful. And some people, while I don't think I'm particularly risk, have a lot of risk aversion. It's a question of where you are in that meter and how you're willing to keep at it. Trial and error. Trial and error and keep doing that. And professionally, that's really worked out for me. You're right.
Christina Donovan: Appreciate you being here and taking the time. Yes. Thank you. Alan, it's been wonderful listening to you. Yeah, thanks.
Alan Harkness: I love you both, and I always feel like never spend the quality time I want to with any of my family members. So it's just a real treat just to talk way too much, but just spend quality time with you guys. So thank you.
Christina Donovan: We learned a lot, and you have lots of words of wisdom.
Tara Bansal: You certainly do.
Alan Harkness: You're very kind. Thank you all both very much.
Tara Bansal: I just felt like there were so many things in the interview with Alan that one I want to go back and do. Like they each deserve their own. Episode one on estate planning and legal preparation for when your parents get old and or pass away.
Christina Donovan: Sleep. Sleep. It's funny because I think of that as a female thing. And so hearing Alan talk about it.
Tara Bansal: And I mean, does Matt have issues sleeping?
Christina Donovan: He does, too, although he's always had issues sleeping. Like I'm not sure middle age has necessarily made his worse, but it is it's something that I feel like any of my female friends who are above 45 sleep is always a topic, I guess, and a concern. And it all seemed very similar to what he described, where I don't have any problems falling asleep, but I wake up, my mind engages, and I can't go back to sleep.
Tara Bansal: That is exactly it for me. I fall asleep, but then if I wake up, 80% of the time, I don't fall back asleep for hours, and that's different. I feel like I've been in more stressful times of my life, and I feel like my life right now isn't that stressful. Yet my mind engages, and I have a hard mean.
Christina Donovan: Maybe I think Matt does have some of that, and maybe middle Ages exasperating know. But yeah, it was just funny when he started talking about his sleep issues, I was like, I had the same reaction, like, oh, that to me, I always thought was know, middle aged women. But he described it very well, and it is an issue, for sure. Yeah, that's a whole topic unto itself.
Tara Bansal: I feel like the whole thing with older parents and he lost a parent, but then he also had to deal with a parent that could not care for themselves, which is probably in everybody's future at some point in some way, for people our age and for me. So many of my friends have already lost one parent, if not two, and we still have both of ours, and I'll be upfront. Like, that's something I'm really scared of. Yeah. And I think it's because you can't predict it, but you know it's coming. You get to a certain point where you can't avoid it.
Christina Donovan: You probably had heard this term before. Alan uses it throughout the parenting up, which I guess is a term I don't think he coined it, but it is a really expressive, defining term for this stage in our lives. Yeah, I had never heard the term, and that's what I thought we may call this episode, and I do. Yeah. It is very expressive and a good change as the child, when you change roles and are taking on more for your parents, making those decisions and I mean the lucky ones, it's a gradual change. But there are times where I think it happens drastically. And that's got to be super hard, too, where you're immediately cast into that type of a role without sort of any ramping up. One of the other things that he talked about, which we could probably have an episode on as well, is relationship strains that happen in this particular time period. And I do think elderly parents definitely contribute to that. I mean, even if they're not in your own home, just the stress and the worry. And sometimes we know people that are financially supporting one or both parents. Those are things that you don't think about in terms of your relationship, but have a really dramatic impact,
Tara Bansal: I think, as well as he states, I agree, one is how different people handle it, and everybody needs different things and juggling that. Yeah, even broader than that. Just the changes in a relationship. I'm thinking of, like with empty nesters.
Christina Donovan: Yeah, no, I think he was specifically talking about with the stresses, mother, living parents. But yeah, I think it also goes back to that idea that there's so many changes happening at this period of your life and it's easy for, I think, anyone's relationship to take a backseat. That's what he kind of expresses, whether it could be for any number of reasons. Agree.
Tara Bansal: The other part that I loved was the lesson for his children. Just that they are enough. Yeah, you don't hear that enough, I think. I think that's important. And he seemed to say a lot of things that you don't hear people talk much about or state so openly. Whether the way he talked about his mom and his dad and his kids. I think he phrased things beautifully and eloquently open in sharing a lot of these. And to me, what also stood out was as a leader, I don't know how he embraces and focuses on relationships and bringing out the best in people. And hearing him talk, you could tell he's a good leader and good at what he does.
Christina Donovan: That's the other thing that stood out to me after Alan's interview and Tara and my discussion on some of the issues that Alan had raised and some of the things he talked about. I told Tari how it brought to mind lines from a poem by Linda Pastan. And instead of ending with a quote today, we thought maybe we would read the poem The Happiest Day by Linda Pastan that had the lines in it that really were brought back to me in listening to Alan speak. I personally cannot get through that poem without crying. So Tari is going to go ahead and read it and then we'll just spend a few minutes talking about some of the things that resonate in that poem in regards to aging and the death of parents.
Tara Bansal: The happiest day? It was early May, I think. A moment of lilac or dogwood when so many promises are made, it hardly matters if a few are broken. My mother and father still hovered in the background part of the scenery, like the houses I had grown up in, and if they would be torn down later, that was something I knew but didn't believe. Our children were asleep or playing the youngest as new as the new smell of the lilacs. And how could I have guessed their roots were shallow and would be easily transplanted? I didn't even guess that I was happy. The small irritations that are like salt on melon were what I dwelt on, though in truth, they simply made the fruit taste sweeter. So we sat on the porch in the cool morning sipping hot coffee behind the news of the day strikes and small wars, a fire somewhere I could see the top of your dark head and thought not of public conflagrations but of how it would feel on my bare shoulder if someone could stop the camera. Then if someone could only stop the camera and ask me, are you happy? Perhaps I would have noticed how the morning shone in the reflected color of lilac. Yes, I might have said, and offered a steaming cup of coffee.
Christina Donovan: The two lines from the poem Happiest day are my mother and father still hovered in the background part of the scenery, like the houses I had grown up in, and if they would be torn down later. That was something I knew but didn't believe. Those lines, to me, just completely sum up the whole idea of your parents aging. It's this idea that even though you know it's going to happen, it's hard to believe that it's going to happen. And until it actually does, you want to keep believing that your parents will always be around, because they always have been. And I don't know, I think more than anything, the idea of your parents aging and death, that expresses it so perfectly for me. Those two lines in that poem. Yeah, the whole poem itself is beautiful, but that in particular with regards to this episode and with regards to thinking of our parents and losing our parents, and I know several friends who recently have, it just is very but there's no way to prepare for it. And just as you said, it's almost like you don't believe that it's going to happen. No, I think that's true. And the first time I read that poem, those lines were what really hit me. And there's a lot in that poem that to me is very personal. But those two lines just really stood out because it's like, wow, it's so true. I mean, I know my parents aren't going to live forever, but I don't believe it because I don't want to believe it. But also it's one of those until I think almost like being a parent, you can't even express it or you can't know what to expect, even though you hear from other people because it's your own, because it's your own. And because I think every circumstance is different. Some people lose their parents quickly without notice. Some people have a prolonged illness. I mean, then you take like the memory issues where sort of half and half, like you've lost your parents in terms of the person that you know, but physically they're still around. I mean, there's just there's so many different I hate to say it, awful things with it, and they're all different. And of course, everyone's going to cope differently. Yeah, I agree. Well, thank you for sharing that. I do love the poem and those lines in particular. Yes, me too. For show notes and other information about our podcast, please go to our website, messymiddlescence.com. If you enjoyed listening, please share with others and come back for more.
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Originally from Forest Park, Georgia, Alan Harkness has worked in Georgia’s public libraries for 39 years in eight different counties. He’s has been Director of the Chattahoochee Valley Libraries since 2013. Alan is a member of The Rotary Club Of Columbus, and is an alumni of Leadership Columbus. He has been a Board Member/Chair of Feeding the Valley Food Bank, his sons’ Boy Scout Troop, and FTC/FRC Robotics League. In 2023, he was selected as Georgia's Public Library Director of the Year.
Alan has a Bachelor’s in Interdisciplinary Studies from Georgia State, and a Masters in Library Science from Florida State. He is married to Amy, a medical librarian at Piedmont Hospital and Gwinnett Medical. They have four children, currently in 2024, they are 32, 21, 17, and 13 years of age. Alan enjoys reading, cooking, gardening, travelling, playing the clarinet and dabbles in calligraphy. Alan’s family lives in Columbus, Georgia.
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